DaveTN

An excellent idea! I can’t imagine why someone has not already thought of this. Instead of wasting your time on that mall crap, why don’t you write a proposal to the local Police Departments to implement this? You can call it the Voldemort tactic. Just call up all the thugs and ask them to come on down and turn their self in. No danger to the Officers, the offender or the public. It really would be a win-win. Oh… and could you ask them to bring with them the drugs that would normally be seized in the old school forced entry?

7.62 NATO aka .308 Winchester

I’m still missing the connection here? You said it was a civil warrant; the Deputy would have served you with it and left. Which is very different from an arrest warrant where he would have handcuffed you and hauled you off to jail. If a knock on the door and handing you a piece of paper is all that is required; there really is no reason for a phone call.

Many cops do treat them like humans and many cops call them. On slow nights I use to call people that had warrants in my district and tell them that if they would come to HQ and surrender to me I would (on misdemeanor warrants) process them myself and allow them to post bond. Some would take advantage of that; most wouldn’t and I would just wait until I saw them driving and nab them, tow their car (which gives me PC for anything and everything I find in their car), and take them in. Usually calling them results in them trying to plead their case. They don’t seem to understand that I had no control over that they are going to be arrested; it’s just a matter of when and where it happens. Walking in and surrendering (with or without an attorney) is usually going to be easier on them than being taken down on the street or a forced entry. Criminal aren’t very smart.

And this has what to do with a criminal arrest warrant?

I agree that is far less likely for an HCP holder. I have been in Tennessee for 10 years and have only seen one person open carrying and he was an off duty cop. I just don’t agree that it has never happened; but then we have no real way of knowing.

With all due respect, based on what experience? I have only been through training with one Police Department and I think the training was excellent. I have worked with other agencies and I didn’t see any obvious problems. Of course anytime you see a cop have an ND/AD or a bad shoot; there are those that are more than willing to make broad sweeping generalizations about all cops and all PD's. Keep in mind also that the term LEO is used pretty fast and loose anymore; I’m talking about trained, full time street cops. I know that some departments have more resources than others; but that’s the way things are. It comes down to the individual in any job. We had more law training than a lawyer, unless the lawyer specialized in criminal law. But the law and the vehicle code changes daily and it is up to the Officer to maintain his knowledge of the law; some do, some don’t. Same thing with firearms training. I was on the department’s pistol team so I got to shoot more than most. Some cops don’t have any interest in it; doesn’t mean they are anti-gun; they just aren’t interested in it. Everyone has opinions on firearms and ammunition. As I have said many times; everything is application driven. Some people are just clueless. How many times have you seen someone rant about magazine disconnects being “lawyer gunsâ€, or someone saying that they carry Glasers in their carry weapons? These people are clueless; they don’t understand the applications. Pick whatever works best for you…. But damn man, do your research and have a little bit of an idea of what you are talking about before making wild azz statements. (Not directed at you.) The problems with Glocks are well documented. But it’s easier for the Glocksters to post “show me the links†and expect us to go through Glock Talk and post hundreds of links outlining all the problems Glock has had than to go do it themselves. PD’s are slow to react on changing firearms or ammunition. But what is the trend? PD’s are dropping Glocks and they are dropping the 9mm round. Why? Because there are better choices out there now for their applications. Price also drives people’s choices. The low cost guns are going to be more popular than the good stuff. Putting a quality gun manufactures name on a low cost POS will also make it popular. Those are just broad sweeping generalizations that I just don’t agree with at face value so I can’t comment on it other than to say I guess we would have to look at specific departments and specific instances.

Sorry, I missed the part where he was standing in line at Wendy’s. I was responding to Mike implying that no one that open carries has ever had their gun taken from them and used on them. Cop involved shootings are documented. Why and how they occurred are used as training tools. I guess I need to check the database of Tennessee HCP holder involved shootings to see if that has ever happened. Oh wait…. I can’t find that information… maybe one of you guys can provide me with the source of that info.

And your opinion is a valid one and a common one. Mine remains the same as it has saved my life and it wasn’t at the range. Many departments allow you to carry what you want. Some departments are more than willing to sacrifice the safety of both their Officers and the public by buying from the low bidder. Many times the decisions are being made by people in the administration that are clue to firearms or ballistics. With the exception of a forum member talking about his right to shoot a cop I have never taken anything said here personally. But anything that’s involves LEO’s or LEO training is going to turn caustic in a big azz hurry. But to answer your questions…. Shooting fast an accurate in a deadly force situation has almost nothing to do with the weapon and everything to do with the shooter and his training. My experience is that you will have other things going through your mind and the mechanics of shooting will be automatic and based on how you have trained. If you are poorly trained the possibility is great that you will die or shoot an innocent person. Training is everything….. But YOU have to be able to pick out what makes sense and what doesn’t for YOU. Because of my LEO experience I can’t fathom the situation where a LEO would be pointing his gun at me. But no… I would not feel comfortable with anyone pointing a firearm at me for any reason regardless of where their finger is. If anyone else is pointing a firearm at me I can only hope that he will not have his finger on the trigger and that he will try to get a sight picture before he fires.

Whether it’s a LEO or not you have to look at each case. If it’s a handling discharge there are generally three types; the shooter pulled the trigger, something hit the trigger, or there was a mechanical failure of the weapon. Accidentally pulling the trigger or bumping the trigger is not usually a big problem for most firearms; it is for a Glock. If you want to make the argument that it is because everyone is carrying a Glock; so be it. But this isn’t anything new it’s been happening since Glock came on the scene. There is no hard and fast data on accidental shootings, so everything is mere speculation. When it comes to the Glocks it just depends which side of the fence you want to be on; most people are making judgments based on absolutely no information. I think most of us can agree on one thing with absolute certainty; weapons like Glocks and 1911’s are not a good choice for a novice shooter to learn and practice proper weapon handling; you don’t get many mistakes And it never ceases to amaze me at how some people think it is perfectly acceptable to carry a weapon that you can’t put your finger on the trigger of. If you have a weapon that you don’t think you can put your finger on the trigger of in a deadly force situation; get rid of it, it is an unacceptable duty weapon or self defense weapon. I can have a person at gun point with my finger on the trigger of any weapon that I own and am comfortable that I am the one deciding when and if the weapon fires.

Cops open carry and it happens to them a lot.

The side with superior firepower. But Okay… I’ll play. If you are talking about the government outlawing or confiscating weapons, and you are talking about citizens making an armed stand against the Police or the Military; the citizens will die. They may die heroes to some; but they will be dead azz heroes. But this is why we (Non- tinfoil hat types) have said it won’t happen. Police Officers and Military men and women are people; they are citizens of this country. They are not going to take up arms against innocent people.

I hope not because someone here sold him a gun.

I’m not arguing with you but there is no mention of the USCG that I can find. Are you saying all those lake patrol Officers are knee deep sailors? http://www.orn.usace.army.mil/op/JPP/rec/faq.htm

I thought my comments were pretty clear, but let me take another shot at it….. No one gives a rip what you or I think. They don’t care what you or I think our rights are; they want to understand what their rights are. You saying that you believe you have some right to carry a gun that comes from the state Constitution, U.S. Constitution , or inalienable rights is no more true than saying you have a right to do belly shots off naked strippers in the middle of Broadway in downtown Nashville. I can read, and the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment of the United States Constitution does not give me any right to carry a gun. The Tennessee State Constitution clearly gives me a right to own a gun but not to carry one. That leaves inalienable rights or natural rights basic to the necessity of my survival. Car jackings, armed robberies and muggings are not infrequent events. They are very real everyday events that all of us are exposed to. Our government has proven that they do not have the desire nor the resources to stop these events; and have gone so far as to have the top court in the land rule that they have no responsibility to do so. Therefore I believe that all Americans have the basic natural right to use whatever tools are available to them to stop these very real threats to their life. But the courts do not agree and would rule me to be criminal if I did so without buying their permission. Therefore that may well be a right, but it is not a recognized right. Submission?? I have been arrested once in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State>Illinois</st1:State> for my beliefs; charged with no crime other than having a handgun in my car. Are you suggesting that you are somehow more of a man or a patriot than I because I won’t continue with what I believe is right, knowing that a second offense would result in jail time?

Thanks for posting that. I couldn't remember what your exact words were, but I knew we were not in agreement. <O:p</O:p

No, I have made the argument several times that I believe I have a right to carry. Unfortunately the courts don’t agree. I just know absolutely that it does not come from the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment or the Tennessee State Constitution. I’ll even take that one step farther.. HCP’s should not be required and training should be the responsibility of the person carrying. Who cares? No one cares what you or I feel like; they want to know what the laws are. Making a bunch of noise about right that you don’t have and aren’t recognized by anyone serves no purpose. Who… give me an example? Our founding fathers put the framework in place; that is all they did. They expected the generations that followed to do as they saw fit and they gave them to tools to do so. We are seeing an example of this now. By the end of this month we are supposedly going to have the SCOTUS make a decision on whether or not the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment is an individual right. They gave the tools to totally remove the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> from the Constitution if we saw fit. I don’t care how other people define it; I only care how the law defines it. I was young and dumb and I believed that I had a right to carry in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State>Illinois</st1:State>. I was arrested and went through a lot of time and expense to see the errors of my ways. When they put handcuffs on you and lock you up in jail; I would say that you were doing something that you don’t have a right to do… would you agree?

You have three sets of laws that you are responsible for, Federal, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><ST1:pTennessee</st1:State> and <st1:State><ST1:pArizona</st1:State>. <O:p</O:p The easiest way for you to make sure you are legal is to have him contact an FFL in his area, and follow that FFL’s instructions on how to proceed. He may let you ship it to him or he may tell you to have an FFL here ship it to him.

I don’t know if <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State>Tennessee</st1:State> has any laws that lay out the requirements. The test would probably be if a loaded firearm could get into your kids hand. Tell her you have a safe and see if that pacifies her. As far as <st1:State>Tennessee </st1:State>not having laws requiring this; I can think of a few. You could make a defense on any of these, but if a kid gets killed you are probably going to be charged. <O:p</O:p 39-13-103. Reckless endangerment 39-15-401. Child abuse and child neglect or endangerment. 39-15-402. Aggravated child abuse and aggravated child neglect or endangerment. 39-13-215. Reckless homicide. 39-13-212. Criminally negligent homicide.

Sounds to me like a couple of guys that both have their tin foil hats screwed on to tight. This country may have another civil war, but it won’t be over guns or gun rights.

No rights are involved. <O:p</O:p <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><ST1:pTennessee</st1:State> does not recognize the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment of the United States Constitution as an individual right. Like most states they see it as a protection for the state from the Federal government. <O:p</O:p The Tennessee State Constitution guarantees you the right to own firearms, but leaves the wearing of arms up to the state legislature. <O:p</O:p HCP is a privilege that you rent from the state. It has nothing to do with the average citizen and their rights under the Tennessee State Constitution. People buy guns legally in <st1:State>Tennessee </st1:State>everyday without a permit. <O:p</O:p So if you want to make a rights/privilege argument you need to define what right you are talking about. <O:p</O:p You are correct it is expensive and it takes a long time. An abused wife that is being threatened by her husband may not be able to afford a $110 carry class and the $115 state fee, plus the cost of a handgun. And she may not have the two months that it takes to get it; she could be dead by then. Does the state care about her? No. Do they acknowledge that she has a right to do whatever it takes to defend her life and the lives of her kids from and attacker? No, not unless she is in her home.

http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2007/OP/OP43.pdf No, the AG has made no ruling on Opry Mills. He has painted with broad strokes the requirements. Do you know that Opry Mills is posted? Do you understand that they don’t want you carrying a gun in there? That is all that is required. HCP involves no rights; it is simply a privilege that you have bought from the state. Private property owners on the other hand have rights, responsibilities, and civil liabilities. If you don’t agree with their rules; don’t enter. If you decide to become the poster child for handgun carry on private property then you are free to push the limits until you are arrested. Then you can take your case to court. You will either win and have case law that we can all point to and say what a great guy you are, or you will just be another convicted criminal. I predict the latter.

I got to work (Chauffer around ) with the Secret Service for two weeks prior to the President coming to town. They do not share your assessment of the situation.

When did double action come on the scene? Does anyone make any cowboy guns (like the Vaquero’s or Colts) that are double action?

I have used their gun blue. My results were better than expected but certainly not close to a quality hot blue.