DaveTN

Not in Tennessee you don’t. Tennessee is an employment at will state. You take a problem outside the company and you can be fired; they don’t even have to give a reason. Unless of course you are in a union or have an employment contract. I know a guy that hurt his back lifting material onto a machine because they did not have the proper lifting equipment. He went to the Doctor and was pulled off work for three days with light duty to follow. He was let go for excessive absenteeism. Does that sound fair to you? Sure unemployment saw it for what it was and let him draw unemployment even though the employer fought it; but that didn’t help him from being fired. You mean pay the line workers what the skilled trade workers that are manufacturing the parts make? How will that help? So again…. It’s really not about unions it’s just that the union workers are paid more than you think they are worth? I’m not trying to be a smart azz; that’s what I’m hearing you say. And that’s fine if that is your opinion. Again… it isn’t simply a market issue; our companies have cost imposed on them by our government that our competitors do not have. Everything has to be green here remember? The only green the foreign countries are worried about is our dollars. I’m not sure what the IRS has to do with it; you will have to help out there. I agree they should de done away with though.

Precisely. Don’t get me wrong, the big 3 are not our friends in this and they are not victims of the union. Unions or no unions we can’t compete with foreign competition on a price basis unless to want the lifestyle of those countries. Not even considering wages our companies here that want to manufacture a product have the cost of OSHA, EPA, Workman’s Comp, Unemployment Insurance, and many have Employee health insurance and 401K or retirement. Our foreign competitors don’t have those costs. But what can be done about to without destroying our economy?

No freakin way I would do what you do. I get stressed cleaning out the gutters. But I have to assume that you get paid for what you do after you get on those towers. Because I could get guys to climb them for $5 an hour with no benefits and wouldn’t have to leave this area to do it. But seriously… if all the $20-$25 an hour manufacturing jobs turn into $8-$10 an hour jobs; you think that won’t impact you?

The threads about the auto industry and the union bashing made we wonder what some are thinking. They blame the unions for the high wages of what they call “unskilled and uneducated†workers. I don’t know if they include the skilled trade workers that made all the parts that make up those products prior to being bolted together; but I would guess they do. So what if we allow our manufacturing base to out sourced to other counties? Or what if we don’t, but we just do away with the pesky unions and get the wages reduced down to where these “unskilled and uneducated†workers need to be. What will that do to your wages and your family’s lifestyle? Who here has a job that can’t be outsourced to another country, can’t be replaced with workers from other countries that will do your job for a fraction of the cost (like IT & Engineers), or will otherwise remain unaffected when all these wage cuts and job losses come into play? Are you worth what you are being paid? Couple of disclaimers here… I’m not in a union, haven’t been in one for many years, and don’t want to be in one. For you manufacturing guys the “unskilled and uneducated†phrase is not my words; just a phrase I keep seeing thrown around.

This is going in all different directions. There really can’t be an intelligent conversation without discussing specific scenarios. Criminal Vs. Civil. Let’s say you shoot a bad guy. It won’t matter if you shot him with a .22 or a 500 S&W; if you were justified in using deadly force. Now, you could find yourself charged criminally if you continued to shoot him after the threat was over. Reckless Homicide (or whatever the name is in this state). Lets say you are at the local Stop & Rob during an armed robbery. The bad guy is holding a gun on the clerk and telling them to give them all the money. You are legally justified in blasting him with your 500 S&W, so you do so. No harm no foul. However… you shoot him and it goes through him, or you shoot at him and miss him; killing the six year old kid standing past him. Now everything has changed. An innocent child has been killed by a HCP holder; the news stations and the public are going to out for blood. Everyone, including the members of this forum is going to crucify you. They are going to sit back and decide what you did wrong. A kid is dead; something had to go wrong. Criminal charges can be brought even though you were justified in using deadly force. What if you had just let the robber go? Were you properly trained? Why were you using that ammo? That gun? You screwed up. And you will go through hell. Even if you don’t go to prison you will probably be destroyed financially, not to mention living with fact that you killed a kid. All the handgun certifications in the world will not keep you from going through that. However… training on whether or not to engage that suspect and tactical training on how to handle that situation might. It’s not all about trigger time. Civil cases…. Wide open. The state doesn’t guarantee you won’t have huge legal bills even in a good shoot. And in a bad shoot everything will come into play. Again the only insurance you can have is good training and situational awareness. My own policy is that I’m not a cop anymore and I don’t have qualified immunity; I’m not carrying a gun to enforce the laws. Unless I am clear in my own mind that someone is about to die; I don’t act.

Sure that makes sense. One of our forum members here decided to list a firearm as “Machine Parts†maybe they will jump in here and tell us how that worked out.

Wow… How did I miss this thread when it was posted? I thought when I started reading it, it would be interesting, but it went south real quick. So let me add my worthless thoughts….. This is a forum for the exchange of information. Everyone has something to offer. I want to hear what all the instructors have to say. I will either learn something or I can blow it off as BS. Luckily most of us can tell the difference. But I don’t want to hear a firearms instructor talking about what a cop expects of them on a traffic stop, unless he is a cop, and I don’t want to hear him talking about what it feels like to face an armed assailant unless he has done it. I don’t want to hear him telling someone to violate the law because he doesn’t agree with it. If he is going to imply that he is an experienced Police Officer I would like to hear him say that. Not that it is required but I’ve seen “I worked in LE†used by security guards and even a guy that was IT for a Police Department. If you are paid by a LE agency to do training; that is training LEO’s. The fact that you have had a couple of cops takes your class doesn’t mean squat. Don’t start telling us about how most trainers or HCP holders are more qualified than cops; it makes you look silly. We have some instructors (Private/LEO/Military) on here that you can just tell they are experienced and my comments are not directed at them. And then we have some that can’t even answer simple questions about the carry laws. Oh and BTW… I don’t have any instructor’s certificates on my wall. I have two honorable discharges and a certificate from graduating the Police Academy. None of which means I know much. But on more than one occasion I have stood face to face with an armed gunman and survived. Now you instructors go back to ripping on each other, or cops, or whoever.

Both eyes open focused on the target. You may not be able to see your hand or your front sight. You will react how you train. If you need to see a sight and can’t you are hosed (and possibly dead) It takes time and practice. Target shooting is a sport. Defensive shooting is a survival skill. Different mindsets. It’s not rocket science and there are probably some forum members in your area that could give you some pointers to get you started. Or you could take a training course.

Racism is far from behind us. We just elected a president not because he is qualified but because is a black. If he had been white he would not have been able to beat out Hillary and she would have been elected because she is a woman. Neither is qualified and neither are the best this country has to offer. My people are not free to worship as we please. We want prayer in schools and to be able to post religious artifacts in public without court injunctions obtained by heathens and those that would like to kill us because of our religion. I’m glad that you are proud to be an American. Our country is in great danger right now. Not from a foreign aggressor but from those that will sell our country out if it will save them a buck. Am I a Patriot? Well besides serving my county, I defend its interests still today. So I would say; yes. But given what just happened in this election and what is happening with our economy I’m not sure if there are enough of us to save our country.

Damn! Now I have this song stuck in my head.

Come on, don’t be that way; I said it’s amusing. Exactly. But that’s what I’m saying… if someone ask what would happen on a traffic stop or a domestic violence call where I worked; I could tell them what most Officers would do. (Since I had worked with most of them) In the discussions on vehicle searches I can say what I would do. You can follow whatever advice you like; but you should try to make sure you aren’t following advice that would likely land you in jail. Like the attorney telling people to get out of the car on a traffic stop and lock the doors.

The same thing happened to me with UPS in Murfreesboro. UPS corporate told me that although what they were telling me was incorrect they would not override the decision of the “Security Officer†on site. I refuse to ship it without telling them because that is a violation of federal law. I’m not putting my azz in jeopardy because they are ignorant of the laws or their own company policies. The first person I talked with at UPS customer service told me she was a 21 year old college student and all she knew about guns were that they scared her.

Fixed it for you.

That doesn’t cut it when you are committing a crime. Hows that?

Thanks. So what are you suggesting “We The Sheeple†do?

Agreed. It was an isolated incident by a small group of criminals in uniform. Their superiors should have been arrested and jailed; but they weren’t. The nation was outraged and both the federal government and many states took action to ensure it would not happen again. Agreed?

Or are of average intelligence and don’t have their tin foils hats on to tight. Sorry man, but while our government may be in bad shape they aren’t going to be kicking in doors. That second video is lame as can be.

A 9 might be okay if thats all you have; just as long as its not a .380. Yes. And if it’s a justifiable shooting; I’m assuming it is some type of civil action.

They use anything and everything in trial. My point is that those things probably didn’t get them to trial. But then we would have to look at each case to determine that. I’m not worried about what caliber or handgun I use. There are plenty of people that think they know the law. We see it in these discussions all the time. Deadly force, vehicle stops, search and seizure, DUI, probable cause; some know what they are talking about, some are pretty amusing. Of course you do. I know a lot of cops, but I only know a couple of Tennessee cops. Either you are a very dedicated individual or Tennessee standards are pretty low. You are a "private security" what? Absolutely. This isn’t fun and games (well sometimes it is); it’s serious. When I see someone getting dumb azz information that could get them in trouble; I’ll call Intelligent people will then try to find out the answer instead of believing whoever is saying what they want to hear. Fill us in on where to search case law. If I want to know what is going to happen on a traffic stop in Nashville I’ll take the word of a Metro cop over a lawyer, corrections officer or someone claiming to be a “LEOâ€. If I want to know about a criminal court procedure I’ll ask a lawyer that specializes in criminal law; not my divorce attorney. And If I’m just killing some time for amusement I’ll ask someone that has absolutely no training but has found michie.com

I mean that Tennessee doesn’t require you to take the class if you have a LEO certification, but it has a time limit; 5 or 10 years (I don’t remember exactly). Someone who has had a carry permit that same amount of time is not required to take a class for renewal. I can understand that if they thought you had been out of LE for long enough you should re- qualify; but wouldn’t that same logic apply to HCP holders?

When I go out to drink I sometimes get drunk. That is why I don’t carry and I don’t drive even after one beer. What if I was trashed and someone said “That guy has an HCP, what if he had been armed?” A permit holder just shot a cop to death on a traffic stop; what do we want to do with little tid bit of information? We can play “what if” all day long. According to you the Officer was not armed. That means he disarmed himself prior to going to the bar. I agree that it is not good PR and probably violates his department policy. Cops are people; they make mistakes. In my department if a cop was involved in something like that a Command Officer would have been sent to the scene and the Officer would be held responsible for his actions. BTW…. Nothing in my responses on this subject is meant to infer that a cop should be allowed to carry while he is drinking. He shouldn’t be, and if we get legislation that allows an HCP holder to go into a restaurant that serves alcohol, he shouldn’t be either.

It’s all smoke and mirrors. If you find yourself in a criminal or civil trial; you have screwed up big time. The gun, caliber, ammo, training score; sure any of that can be used; but it didn’t get you in that courtroom. When I took my class the instructor stopped counting holes at 70%. Everyone got a score of 70%. He thought it might matter in a trial; I disagree; but it really isn’t important. As far as retraining, I found it amusing that the state would not accept my LEO certification because it was too old; but there is no requirement for requalification on a renewal no matter how old it is. Training is paramount. I think the pricing of it keeps it out of reach for many that need it; but that’s where local government needs to step up. Not only is handgun training important but so is training on shooting scenario’s (Shoot/ don’t shoot). My biggest fear as an HCP holder (after surviving the initial encounter) is what other armed citizens in the area may do. Things are not always as they appear. The law. We don’t know it; we don’t understand it, and we don’t have access to it. As a former cop I’m use to knowing exactly what the law is and its interpretations by the local courts and prosecutors. Since I moved to Tennessee I don’t have that. Sure I have access to the written law itself, but that is only part of the answer when you are talking about something as important as the use of deadly force or the laws governing carry. No disrespect to the trainers here but most are not trained in this area that is obvious in some of the replies. As I have said before I would like to see seminars offered by local prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys.

I didn’t bring up department policy because just as you pointed out about an AG opinion; they are not law. (Warning shots come to mind. Most departments have a policy on them one way or the other, but our state law did not address them) I personally would not eat in a restaurant that served alcohol when I was in uniform; (its just bad PR) but I guess there may be times and places where it is convenient for some Officers to do so. I always paid for my meal when I ordered. Usually the dispatchers would let us eat, but if something serious goes down and you are close…. You go. So the idea that they are off duty just doesn’t hold water. But then… we didn’t have on or off duty status; so it didn’t matter. But lets face it, this discussion isn’t about whether or not a cop is on-duty when he’s eating; it’s about some folks thinking that using that as an argument for them to carry will somehow be helpful. It won’t be; its apples and oranges.

Although not a popular opinion on this forum; that is solid common sense and is the reason I don’t think we will see legislation allowing it. As has been pointed out there is not a distinction between a restaurant and a bar. Also you are going to see that some who claim to speak for HCP holders think they should be able to have a glass of wine or a beer with dinner. I don’t agree with that and would not support legislation that allowed it. It’s bad enough that should we find ourselves in a shooting situation we have a very big concern with other HCP holders without having to worry about an HCP holder whose judgment and thought process is clouded by alcohol. I doubt any of the cops you are worried about are drinking while in uniform. It doesn’t appear to be a problem. We have a legal system; not a justice system. I had to enforce laws that I did not think were fair. I feel safer in a restaurant that serves alcohol than in a courthouse. But I don’t expect to get to carry there anytime soon. What other states do is really not important. But if we are going to pick a state to model ourselves after; let’s pick Alaska.

I think everyone should be able to be armed all the time; wherever they go… no permit required. Unfortunately the Tennessee legislature does not agree. I just don’t see how taking the stand of …â€If I can’t do it they shouldn’t get to do it.†is a productive response to the problem. A cop is a cop; 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Unless he drinking or intoxicated he should be armed. Whether he is in uniform or street clothes he may be needed to react (in my previous state he could be required to act); that may be hard to do if he is unarmed. So how about we quit worrying what the cops can or can’t do and try to get something done about what we can do. I’ve seen you make that statement before. Do you have access to case law? Because I would like to have it.