DaveTN

You probably would have spent $2K and still been convicted of speeding. The traffic ticket had nothing to do with the search. If I tied up at least 4 Officers and a dog for two hours on a speeding ticket I would have been explaining to a Command Officer why. Did you make a complaint? No, you said you didn’t have the time. So quite frankly it’s not important to you; it’s not important to anyone else. The Command Officers can’t fix what they don’t know about. No, stories like this are why you are pizzed off. You have one side of the story. If you want the other side of the story, go to the PD (don’t call) and ask to speak to the Officer that stopped your son. If you don’t know his name, tell them the date, time and location where he was stopped and they will know who stopped him. Then you can hear his side of what happened and possibly see the video. I’ve seen some parents pretty embarrassed when they came in to make complaints. Maybe for you venting by calling cops names on an internet forum makes you feel better. But I would want to hear the other side before I was made to look like a fool. And I certainly mean no disrespect to you, that is just from someone that has seen this happen many times. You don’t have to be making a citizens complaint to talk to the Officer and see what happened; I was always happy to talk to concerned parents.

RIF… did they teach that the university of Miami? I didn’t say our founding fathers weren’t educated…..Dude.

No …I have been placed in jail for no crime other than carrying a loaded handgun. When that happens you can’t make an intelligent argument that you have a right to carry. Our founding fathers never pretended to have great wisdom and that everyone for the rest of time would have to adhere to what they wrote. They put the basics in place and then gave us a system to change or interpret the Constitution. The system that they put in places is still working and it most recently has said that you have a right to keep arms but you do not have a right to bear arms. Should it be enforced (and it never will) the second amendment has the potential to violate States Rights. And for that reason alone the SCOTUS will never rule that you must be allowed to carry guns. I am from Illinois. I have lived in Tennessee 11 years and I continually offer thanks to those that allow us the privilege of carrying in Tennessee. It is our legislators, not the 2nd amendment that is the reason we can carry. And if we don’t support them and vote for those that support our cause; it can be gone with the stoke of a pen.

You license plate can be lit up like a Christmas tree and the cop will just have to find something else. If he wants to stop you; you are getting stopped….. legally.

Rights don’t require permits. Can Scalia carry his loaded rifle on the subway today? Most of us here agree with your idea; we just know that it is not a right. Rights are rights. Pie in the sky or the way things should be mean nothing. The Chicago handgun ban is still doing well.

We know how it will work don’t we?

And my point is that you can give all the reasons as to why you think you have this right; but that does not make it so. You do not have any “Right†recognized by the Federal government or the state of Tennessee to bear arms. 97% of the people of the state of Tennessee would be subject to arrest if they carried a loaded handgun off their property. That is not a right. I believe that it should be a right. But as expected the SCOTUS (in Heller) stopped short of acknowledging our right to bear arms because of states’ rights. Gun owners running around acting like we made some kind of big win with Heller and we will be another 100 years getting this back in court.

Seriously… I wouldn’t plan on a retirement unless it is funded by you. (In any type job) On a different note, another thought I had that I will add…. I see a lot of guys trying to go with small departments because they think it would be hard to get into a big department like Metro. Aim high. Sure a little department will get your foot in the door, but a department like Metro opens a whole bunch of doors. You can go anywhere in the country you want.

You can't get paid right then. Most places you have to be at least 50. Pensions will be taken away as the economy worsens; they are a thing of the past. Unfortunately I think GM and Ford workers are getting ready to find that out.

No, I wasn’t joking I was serious as could be. Thinking you have a right that you do not have is not good for anyone. The state of Tennessee does not recognize the first one as having anything to do with you carrying guns. It does recognize the 2nd as your right to own them; but certainly not to carry them.

You guys crack me up. Some guy decides to run across a parking lot and you guys think he needs to be aware that there may be skittish HCP holders in the area. [Killer Beaz voice ON] Now don’t run across the parking lot little Johnny cause some of them easily frightened HCP holders could be in the area. [Killer Beaz voice OFF]

Well first… because carrying a gun is not a right; it is a privilege that you buy. The legislation that gives you that privilege also gives the Officer the right to disarm you. Secondly, a cop may simply think you look like you are going to be a problem; at that point gun control goes into effect. It certainly makes you a potential threat. Not all cops are going to disarm you; but I would guess the ones that do have a reason.

You gotta help me out with that one. Where does that right come from, and who is it recognized by?

There is no right answer; it’s just stuff to discuss on a gun forum. I’m a former cop, but we didn’t have carry permits. But my thinking is that the good guys that will tell you aren’t; going to shoot you. Now if I’m was going to jerk a guy through the side window of his car and beat the pizz out of him with my nightstick or taser him; I might appreciate it if he lets me know if he armed. I have heard the stories about rogue cops that will chew your azz out for not telling them. Are they true? Who knows… but if I forget; I’ve had my azz chewed out before and lived through it.

I’m probably going to tell him because I’m going to be kissing his azz and trying to make small talk so he lets me go with a warning. Yes… I absolutely will be a sell out and a kiss azz for a $200 speeding ticket.

I had a laundry list of reasons, but money was at the top. That isn’t really the case now. There are departments starting now at $40K with patrolmen making $60K; that’s not bad. You have to be the right kind of person for the job. As you can see here, people expect cops to be perfect and want them fired if they aren’t. Sometimes you get tired of pissing with people. You will be held to a higher standard that the President of the United States yet you will hear how cops get away with everything. You will deal constantly with the lowest of dirt bags and it will have an effect on you. You will help get screaming people out of cars only to find out they died later. When its kids you may have nightmares the rest of your life. When cops retire; they die. If you are lucky enough to train with a large department you will get some of the best training available but then have the guys on here that spent eight hours smoking and joking at an HCP class talk about how they are better trained than you. I could go on and on….... But hey… go for it. It is a good job and cops are going to have jobs when others won’t. The biggest suggestion that I would make would be to have a trade or a career to fall back on. Don’t waste your time going to school for criminal justice. It won’t help you get a job and isn’t required. Go to school for something you could use if you decide you don’t like being a cop, or something that an agency like the FBI could use. Accounting, Electronics, Business, etc. What about you? What are you going to do when your two friends take you to the range and you get your feelings hurt?

If an Officer feels the need to search you he is going to do it. I know that doesn’t sit well with some, but there is nothing in any Federal or State law that keeps an Officer from protecting himself and those around him. A pat down for weapons is just a given. Probable cause for a search does not require much. As I have said before I never ask for permission to search a vehicle when I didn’t already have probable cause for a search. I was just making conversation to see what the person says. If it’s a kid with liquor or pot I am also making up my mind whether the stop is going to end with me calling the parents to come pick up the kid and the car, or if it is going to end with me towing the car and arresting the kid on criminal or DUI charges. That is what you need to be aware of as a parent. As you said you are not taking up for your son; I would guess because you don’t know what happened. Kids… especially teenage boys do stupid things; things that are sometimes illegal. I know I certainly did. I am not addressing the times when your son is totally innocent. I am addressing the times when the cops have your son dead busted. What he does and what comes out of his mouth will be the deciding factor in what happens to him. There comes a point in many people’s lives when their future is dependent on the discretion of the cop standing in front of them. I have tried my very best to make my kids understand how to handle that moment. Fortunately they have not been in that situation. Well… my son couldn’t keep his mouth shut and drove away from a traffic stop with three tickets instead of one, and had to pay a much higher rate on his insurance. But that’s okay; it’s part of living and learning and luckily all it did was cost him money. Don’t worry about starting a big debate. I think it is a public service. You may not like what cops have to say, but I think you deserve to hear it. Information…. That’s what it’s all about. You decide if what you are reading makes sense to you or not.

And therein lies the problem. You start your post by saying that you have real problems with this, but then go on to say you have never experienced this or seen it firsthand. You will always hear horror stories; and you will always hear one side of them. I try to not make judgments without hearing both sides of the story. My experience as a cop tells me that you just can’t do that. People lie and distort the truth when they tell stories about what happened. (Both sides will) Do not take these statements as my saying there are not bad cops out there; I am the first to say there are. However, if you do run into a bad cop getting in a pissing match with him could very well land you in jail or in the hospital. You wait until the threat is over and then you deal with it. I just don’t see how today’s Police Departments could give you anymore opportunity for recourse than they do. The majority of people I have talked with that have come to Police HQ to make a complaint on an Officer fall into two categories; traffic offenders and drunks. Traffic Offenders that are upset because they got a ticket they don’t think they deserve. It’s explained to them that is what traffic court is for. A Command Officer would talk to them and even possibly give them a citizen’s complaint package, but that’s all that can be done. Drunks…. Officers have been at their home and they didn’t like how things went down. They are told to come back when they sober up and usually aren’t seen again. Here’s a tip… if you are going to make a complaint on a cop, and want anyone to take you seriously, don’t do it when you are drunk. You are still in a free country. Some people have problems with the 4th amendment. The word “Unreasonable†was put in there for a reason. Cops are allowed to search and our founding fathers put that word in there on purpose. What the person in the car, the cop, and a judge see as unreasonable may be different; but we have a system in place to deal with that. If you want a real world view of what happens on the streets see if your department has a ride along program. Or if you have some free time on your hands and you want to play cop; check to see if your department has Auxiliary Police Officers. You get to carry a gun and mix it up just like the real cops…. You just don’t get paid.

So your underage kid is drinking beer in the car. What he doesn’t know is that the van next to him at the traffic light is a cop watching him drink the beer (or hit the joint or whatever). He also doesn’t know that the cop in the unmarked van has radioed ahead to the marked unit running radar two blocks ahead. Your kid sees the marked unit in plenty of times and hides whatever it is he is doing. The marked unit falls in on your kid and pulls him over. In the next few seconds your kid is going to be making some decisions that could impact his future pretty seriously. And you are telling me that your advice to him is to get out of the car, lock the doors, and refuse a request to search?

I know they will argue forever. I don’t think most of them do it because they want to argue, I think they do it because they truly don’t understand the law and want desperately to believe those that that don’t know any more than they do simply because they are telling them a bunch of stuff that they want to hear. I commented in this thread and some of the others because it is a parent questioning something that happened to their kid. I assume they are trying to get information so they can educate their child. I have seen too many cases of kids going to jail because they acted exactly the way their misinformed parents told them to act when they were stopped. Search and seizure and Constitutional law are fascinating things to discuss or even argue. But do it right here on an internet forum where there is no harm; not on the street during a traffic stop.

You need a Judge to determine that your rights have been violated. Searches do not require a warrant, and are not a violation of your rights. Unreasonable searches are a violation of your rights. Almost everything is on video anymore. If you know what is going to happen in court; keep that in mind. But Judges don't always side with the cops. Nothing will happen to the Officer if the Judge believes that the Officer thought he was acting within the law. Cops are human and make mistakes. A Doctor makes an innocent mistake and someone dies. Is his medical license revoked? Probably not. Your attorney makes a mistake and you are sent to prison. Is he disbarred? Nope. A cop makes a mistake and your car gets searched. No one is hurt. Does he lose his job? Nope. We don’t have a justice system; we have a legal system. Things can happen to you that are not fair.

No, that’s not what I said. Correct. You have many, many avenues of recourse available to you. All of them are available after the traffic stop. Hey look…. I know this doesn’t sit well with a lot of people. Everyone wants to be a lawyer and hold court on the street. I’m just pointing out that while you may think that is how it should be; it isn’t. If you want to help pay for your attorneys big home that’s great, but don’t give your kid information that will mess them up. They expect you to give them straight information that won’t hurt them.

Is it right for the cops to stop good kids and hold them for an hour for no reason? No….obviously. Is that what happened? Doubtful. I couldn’t care less what opinions my kids had of cops. They grew up around them so it was what it was. When they got older I just wanted to be absolutely sure that they didn’t do something that would cost them severely.

I don’t know, I wasn’t there. Did they have to wait 30 minutes for the drug dog to get there? As I already said, the issue wasn’t the light.

I am a former cop, but not in Tennessee. I will give you my opinion anyway. When the reason isn’t apparent to you. Probable cause is a 12 lane interstate 1000 miles long.If they were looking for a car like the one he was in; they are good to go. I would usually wait for a traffic violation to stop them though. I don’t know if it is here, but it was where I was from. However… it’s not a violation that most cops would stop you for, it’s a violation that is used when they need PC for a stop. Do what? You never have to give consent to search; you just can’t try to stop or block them from searching. If it is an unlawful search that is dealt with later in court; never on the street.Kids deserve to understand what is going to happen on a traffic stop, what their rights are, and how to handle the situation in case they run into a bad cop, or what they think is a bad cop. It could impact their future. Do your kid a favor and don’t tell them dumb azz chit like “Always refuse a search” and “Never answer their questions”. If you want to be a martyr that’s fine, but let your kid get old enough and intelligent enough to make that decision on their own.