DaveTN

I’m sorry for your loss; thats terrible.

They wouldn’t unless they were required to by law. I couldn’t care less if they keep the records; but if I did I wouldn’t care what their “Policy†is. The questions are: 1. Is there a law that requires them to destroy the records? 2. Is there a procedure in place to make sure that happens? <O:p</O:p If the answer to both those questions is “Yes†then you have accountability. If the answer to either of those questions is “Noâ€, then TBI can keep whatever they have.

The court answered the question in Heller that you have a right to keep arms, but you do not have a right to bear arms. Nothing will be different here. <O:p</O:p It should be interesting though on the Chicago handgun ban. I doubt Daley will comply and Illinois will back him by claiming States Rights. <O:p</O:p

I agree that this application screams revolver. 4†Smith & Wesson .357Mag. K or L frame. If she (or you, whoever is driving this decision) insists on a semi-auto; check put the S&W M&P. Have them put on the small grip back straps.

This isn’t a 2nd amendment case; it’s the 10th amendment and States Rights.

That will take forever; if they even decided to hear it. I’m more interested in what the 6th Circuit says. If they agree with the TFFA; it’s a go.

This is old news; I’m still waiting to see what happens. Has a suit been filed or do we have to wait for some poor smuck to get arrested?

I believe there are. Self defense and the right to stay alive is a God given right. I can’t protect myself from a thug with a gun with my bare hands. Did anyone happen to see Gangland on the History Channel about Nashville? Did you listen to the gang banger that said he just enjoyed shooting stuff? My stuff he meant people. How do you protect yourself against someone like that without a gun? If he rolls up on you, you probably won’t have a chance anyway, but a least with a gun you could possibly have a chance. Why would you just want to add to the stats? I don’t carry on my person very often, but I just wanted to be able to have a gun in my car, or carry if I go to Memphis. A late night trip to downtown Memphis was what caused me to get my permit.

Are you making an argument for the 2nd amendment or against States Rights?

It comes from the same place that gives me the right to breath, eat, or drink. Self protection is a God given right; or at least it should be. Let me save some time in case the atheists want to jump in… If you don’t believe in God, then wherever your right of survival comes from. Is it recognized by the courts? Nope, no more than a right to bear arms is. My privilege to protect myself and my family comes from the Tennessee legislature in the form of a privilege I can purchase from the state. That is recognized by the courts.

45… If you think I was calling you a jack ass, I apologize; I was not. If you look at what I wrote I think you will see that I was referring to the Illinois carry conversations. If a state recognizes your right to carry, carry permits are not required. I was jailed in Illinois for carrying without a permit. If a citizen in Tennessee carries without a permit they risk being jailed. Therefore there is no right. But carry on your 2nd amendment fight. I surely don’t want anyone to stop doing that. But my point was that if carry privileges are tied to the second amendment; that battle is over before it gets started. Yes, this is Tennessee and I don’t expect you to give a rip about Illinois. But I do. I also know that states like Illinois and California stand directly in the way of any meaningful reconizition of the 2nd amendment or any National Carry laws. If states like Illinois can get carry privileges it will help us all.

Exactly And that right should not be tied to the 2nd amendment.

But that not a right; it a privilege. It’s not that I call us a “special groupâ€; it’s what we are. Any time the discussion here is about cops or off duty carry for cops the question is always asked what makes them a special group? The law makes them a special group; just as it does us. We both have special privileges that a citizen does not have. The poor may not be able to afford the approx $200 it takes to get a permit. The abused Mother fleeing an abusive ex with her children may not have the money and certainly does not have the 90 days it takes to get it. Committing a crime with a gun is a felony. Simple possession without a permit is a misdemeanor. You give criminals too much credit for thinking. My vote is for Alaska. I agree with you that we should have the right. But we are talking law here, not how we think things should be.

Until you get an answer I would go with this… When you read the sign do you understand its intent? If you do and follow it you will have no problems. If you do understand it and make a decision that it is not legal you may find yourself cited and you can make your case in court. I talked to a Murfreesboro Officer about this and he said that when they are called out, they give the person that is carrying notice that the owners do not want them to return to the property while they are carrying. If the return while carrying they will be arrested for criminal trespass. He said he has not heard of it going any farther than that. We have not had anyone on this forum (as far as I have seen) be cited for this or any verifiable case of it happening. While we have access to the written law most of us do not have access to case law to see if a decision has ever been made. The Attorney General has written an opinion on this. Here is a link if you want to read the entire opinion. http://tennessee.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2007/OP/OP43.pdf Keep in mind that the AG opinion is not binding on an Officer or the Courts; so it’s just an opinion and DOS can't speak for all deaprtments in the state.

And therefore arguing if it is a right or not is moot. If it is illegal for a citizen to carry a gun, as it is in Tennessee; it is not a right. As I said the 2nd is in conflict with States Rights; pick a side. The city of Chicago and the state of Illinois is charged with maintaining a safe environment for the citizens. To do that the city has chosen to outlaw handguns and the state has chosen to outlaw carry. I do not agree that what they are doing prevents crime; but unless the Feds want to assume that responsibility they don’t have jack to say about it. I am active in trying to get carry permits in Illinois and it pisses me off when an intelligent discussion is going on with someone and some jack ass turns it into a 2nd amendment debate. That battle has been fought and lost in Illinois. If they want to continue it, fine, but don’t tie it to carry permits. If cops violate it every day; those that have been violated have recourse. Because the 4th protects us from “unreasonable†searches, the courts are constantly hearing cases on what is reasonable. You may not agree with the court’s decision; but until another decision comes along; that is the way it will be. You can call it that if you like; it would be more accurate than “The state of Tennessee is acknowledging my 2nd amendment rights.†You have been told since your first day of Drivers Education that driving is a privilege; not a right. You have to pay a fee and take a test. If you do not follow the rules your license will be revoked. Just like the HCP. Now how do you think that an HCP is a right in any way, shape or form? NOTE: I have an HCP and I know exactly where it came from and who is responsible for me being able to carry and I appreciate them for it. I am not against it; I am merely pointing out that the state of Tennessee does not recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right anymore than the state of Illinois. No rights are involved with an HCP. We are a “special Group†with special privileges that are not the rights or the privilege of all Tennessee citizens.

No, you do not have a right to bear arms. You can claim that and you can do all the flag waving you like, but you absolutely do not have the right to bear arms. The fact that some of us know and acknowledge the law does not mean we agree with it. This is not propaganda this is fact. How would you suggest that we start standing up for our rights? Because I was arrested and jailed in Illinois for no crime other than having a gun in my car. I was young and dumb and thought I would fight it all the way to the SCOTUS….. You can’t. Having a right to bear arms would mean that you can strap on a gun and walk down the street in any state in America. That will never happen. My privilege of carrying a gun in Tennessee does not come from the 2nd amendment; it comes from my legislators. I feel that it is important that people know that and acknowledge it or we run the risk of losing that. The SCOTUS has acknowledged that you have a right to own guns, but they have also said local government controls how and where you can carry them. We have a system put in place by our founding Fathers to interpret the Constitution and the legality of our laws. If you do not agree with it your Constitutional arguments are pointless. At the time the 2nd amendment was written it was not seen as a problem for States Rights. Today it is. Several states claim the control of when and where guns are carried as a State Right. Montana and Tennessee (with others following) are leading the country in fighting the Feds over control of things the Feds claim to have. They have started by using firearms. The SCOTUS does don’t want to rule on the right to bear arms. Why? Because if they rule that it is a right states like Illinois and the City of Chicago will simply defy the ruling. Some gun groups claimed a victory in Heller. Can the people of the city of Chicago legally own handguns now? No, the city claimed that the ruling does not apply to them and they will continue business as usual (as did other cities and states). If they had ruled that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right it would open the door for states like California, Illinois and New York to totally outlaw guns. They didn’t want that either. The Constitution changes (and it was designed that way). If it didn’t we would still have slavery and the state could make you take a test to vote (the voting test might be a good thing ). We have never and will never fight a war over the 2nd amendment. However, we have fought a war over States Rights. (Yes, I know they are teaching in the schools now that we fought it over slavery, but that is just wrong) So… Do I believe I have a right to bear arms? Yes, but it doesn’t come from the 2nd. Now a question for you. If a bunch of states (even the pro gun ones like Tennessee) take the stand that gun control is a State Right; which side of that argument are you on? Since you are implying that we are all sitting on our hands watching our rights being taken away; what do you suggest we do?

RIF

No, I’m not saying that there is cause for arrest, search or permanent seizure of weapons. I’m saying that in this case Officers clearly had reason to approach this guy and remove him from the theater. I’m also saying that if a person calls the Police on someone open carrying; contact will be made. At that point what the Officer sees will determine how things go. At that point you also have choices to make, you can refuse to answer questions, or you can cooperate. Both you and the Officer can do whatever you are ready to take reasonability for. But this is a moot point for those of us in Tennessee. It is illegal to carry a firearm in Tennessee. If you have an HCP and refuse to show it or give ID; I would guess you are subject to arrest on weapons charges.

As others have said you can’t do the deal without going through an FFL. Also keep in mind Federal Law requires that you notify the shipper. So at that point you are done anyway unless it is going to an FFL.

I’m usually right when we disagree and you know it.

Buds has them in stock for $702 delivered to your FFL.

Okay… let me fill you in. In this country we have spent a lot of time and money putting systems like 911 and crime stoppers in place. Most large Police departments are reactive not proactive; they go from one call to the next. The public needs to be assured that if they call in an emergency someone will come. They also need to know that they can call anonymously when they see what they believe to be a crime; or a crime about to occur. I am not talking about arresting someone for carrying a gun, I am not talking about searching anyone. I am simply stating that your contention that a cop needs PC to approach you for carrying a gun is ridiculous. If they are acting in good faith they are shielded from any lawsuit you choose to threaten them with. Sure, you can always find an attorney to take your money; but it probably won’t be one of the good ones. I have no idea what happened in Norfolk, if you would like to post some names and dates we can discuss it. If someone won a lawsuit against the city it was probably because the cops weren’t acting in good faith. Cops are everyday people trying to do a job, some are good at it others are not. Do they go to law school or are they experts on Constitutional law? Nope, and no one expects them to be. They make mistakes. If you choose not to answer any questions when you are stopped; that’s fine. Everyone has to do what they are ready to take reasonability for. In the meantime if I am stopped by a cop I will treat him with dignity and respect, I will answer whatever he asks me and then be on my way. Hopefully I will have made a new friend. I have walked in his shoes and know what he has to deal with. If you don’t mind saying, what do you do for a living?

Certainly they can, and they can do it in any state. Find me a cop, just one, that will not approach a person that is open carrying when a citizen has called in on that person. And nothing in the 4th amendment prohibits it. <O:p</O:p For your version of the 4<SUP>th</SUP> to work you would need to remove the word “unreasonableâ€. It is there for a reason. <O:p</O:p

To think you were doing some type of service to HCP holders you would have to believe that the public at large is unaware of the situation… maybe if they live in a cave. The public is fully aware of what is going on and they don’t like it. Some just don’t want anyone carrying a gun and some see us as a “Special Group” that has privileges they can’t afford to buy. Infringement of our rights? If this involved a right it wouldn’t even be an issue. Open carriers are contributing to the future infringement of our privileges.

While not being required by law, common sense must come into play. I’ve been on many traffic stops where the people in the car were fixed on me at the window and did not even notice my partner or back-up Officer standing at the other side of the car looking in. For that reason I will inform if I am carrying and not worry about it if I am not. I would much rather calmly inform the Officer I am carrying than deal with what may happen when we hear “Partner….Gunâ€.