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Everything posted by DaveTN
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Apparently Superintendents are above the law
DaveTN replied to a topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
He didn’t let it go; he reported it to the Sheriff, who reported it to the DA. The DA decided not to prosecute. I assume he would have made the same decision if the guy had been booked and jailed. I didn’t have discretion on reporting a felony either; but I didn’t have to make an arrest. I just had to notify the DA and let him make the call on an arrest. If you were the school Resource Officer would you have cuffed him up in front of everyone and called for a transport or called a Command Officer and see what they want to do? Did he get a break because he was a school administrator? Doubtful. Sounds to me like he got a break because he had friends in the right places. Is a school administrator carrying at work more dangerous than speeding? Not to me it’s not and I have let friends and relatives go that I stopped for speeding. I understand you are trying to make a point that he got a break because of who he knew. And I agree that is probably what happened. How are you suggesting that it gets fixed; take everyone’s discretion away? Do want this guy arrested, convicted, and his career destroyed because he carried a gun into a school, or because you can’t carry a gun into a school? -
Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
That’s wrong and it’s wrong whether you are a Police Officer or not. Pulling a weapon is not using deadly force and has nothing to do with the deadly force statues unless deadly force is used. If you pull a weapon and are not justified in doing so, it aggravated assault. The responding Officer, the DA, and a Judge or jury will decide if you were justified or not.... in that order. To say a cop can’t pull a gun without the use of deadly force being justified is ridiculous. I can’t count the number of felony stops I have made where I have a removed the occupants of a vehicle at gunpoint. I couldn’t shoot them if they ran and the use of deadly force wasn’t justified unless they put my life in danger. I’ve made traffic stops where things just didn’t seem right; I’ve had my weapon upholstered in my hand. There are required elements of any offence and simply pulling a gun doesn’t mean an automatic arrest. -
Apparently Superintendents are above the law
DaveTN replied to a topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
If I remember right you said you served a third of your life as a Police Officer. When you were a Patrol Officer did you arrest everyone that had violated the law? I worked during the time the “Domestic Violence†laws were changed. Our discretion was taken away. I took people to jail on charges of Domestic Violence that I didn’t think warranted an arrest. And, that’s a pretty serious charge to be arrested on. I was pretty vocal about it and was told if I didn’t like it; quit. Removing Officers discretion is not good. I made judgment calls and either let people go with a warning or arrested them. We don’t know if an HCP holder has ever been warned; the only reason you are reading about this is because of the politics involved and the fact that a school administrator was involved. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Oh, I’d be the first to admit traffic stops are used for checking out suspicious people. I hated working traffic, but I leaned the vehicle code inside and out while I had to do it. Once I got to District Patrol if I saw a suspicious vehicle cruising your neighborhood; he didn’t have a chance. I could quickly find a legitimate reason to stop him and check him out. Look around the inside of the car, run his DL, ask him what he was doing in the area. If during that I found something I dealt with it. If he checked out I let them go (usually without a ticket for whatever violation I stopped them for). That’s just good Police Work. Wanted felons, burglars, and armed robbers aren’t setting at home being good boys; they are out driving around in cars looking for their next victim. -
Apparently Superintendents are above the law
DaveTN replied to a topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
If I were a school resource Officer and I noticed you were carrying (printing, whatever) while in there for something to do with your kid, I would quietly ask you step outside and I would remind you of the law. If you said you didn’t know you couldn’t carry there, or forgot you were carrying; I would just ask that you make sure it doesn’t happen again. I think most of the cops I know would do the same thing as long as no one else saw it or had complained. We didn’t have carry permits where I was a cop, but we let a lot of stuff slide when we could. Most of the cops I knew were pro-gun and wanted our state to adopt carry laws. I know that’s not the popular consensus around here, but it’s just my observation from having been a street cop. I have only had the opportunity to talk to a couple of Tennessee cops, and we talked about carrying past a sign. They said they would simply ask people to leave, and arrest them if they refused; but they said they had never had an HCP holder refuse to leave. I understand that a school is a whole other issue, especially if the Resource Officer has been approached by a freaked out soccer mom, teacher, or a 911 call has been made. I’m on a gun forum on the internet…. Of course its a fantasy world. -
Apparently Superintendents are above the law
DaveTN replied to a topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
If I read that story right the Deputy made an observation, he informed the Sherriff, the Sherriff gave the information to the DA, and the DA told him not to do it again and dropped it. Is that not how we want it handled? Should we be pizzed off because he wasn’t cuffed and hauled off to jail? How did this become a “Bad Cop†issue? Do I think I could walk into that same school carrying and get a warning instead of being arrested? Probably not, but one can hope. -
Apparently Superintendents are above the law
DaveTN replied to a topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
You call it preferential treatment; they call it discretion. You can put whatever name on it you want but I can absolutely assure you that you don’t want it taken away. If the Deputy felt that strongly about it he should have taken him into custody right then. He didn’t. The guy got a warning and he said he wouldn’t do it again…. End of story. -
Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
I’m surprised it took 118 posts for that to get thrown out there. -
Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
If you are accused of pulling a gun on someone the order of those judging you will be the following; the responding Officers, the DA, and possibly a Judge or jury. It appears that is what is happening here. We don’t know if the investigating Officer has decided to arrest the Officers or not, they have submitted the reports to DA for him to make that decision. Even if he decides not to pursue charges it may not be over for the Officers; they can still face disciplinary action by their department. Some of us here are waiting to hear the evidence and the decisions made. Some have convicted these cops already based on one side of the story. I hope none of you ever have to pull your gun on someone, but if you do I hope you are judged by those that look at evidence and not the fact that you are an HCP holder and should have known better. It’s made for a lively discussion though hasn’t it? And whether charges are filed or it’s dismissed; it will get livelier. -
Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Well, it could be because unlike a citizen, these Officers can be called in by their department and ask to make a written follow-up report to the incident. They have two choices then; make the report, or invoke the 5th. What caught my eye is that one Officer is on “Modified Duty†and the other Officer is not. That, to me, implies that either something happened that is putting that Officers actions in question, or he is refusing to make a statement. Also, they talk about presenting it to the DA. If the investigations fails to show any wrong doing and they don’t have RAS or PC to believe anything happened; there isn’t anything to present to the DA. On the other hand if the investigation turns up nothing they could simply be presenting it to the DA to be totally transparent and letting the DA make the decision on whether or not to close the complaint. These types of accusations generally are made to the same department where the Officer works. I guess the fact that two departments are involved could be slowing this investigation down. I think it’s important to note that the alleged victim says “It appears that KPD has responded to his complaint and is conducting a thorough investigationâ€. If he’s satisfied with the way things are going, that’s all anyone can ask at this point. -
Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
I couldn’t believe it either, but according to what I was reading today in Tennessee there is a law that allows that. I would want my name printed. Because if it turns out this story is made up or embellished, not only would I make sure he was arrested, but I would sue him civilly. I’m not implying that this didn’t happen the way he said, we have no way of knowing that. Usually the Officers name is printed when this kind of action reaches the papers. I can assure you everyone at Oak Ridge PD and their families knows who these Officers are; it’s only a matter of time until it’s printed. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
So you are making the argument that you have to tell them you have an HCP if they ask, but if they ask you if you are armed you can tell them you don’t have to answer that or tell them where your weapons are? Interesting interpretation of the intent of the law, I guess we will have to wait and see if we can find someone to be a test case. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Many times. I have done inventory searches on many vehicles I was having towed because I was arresting the driver and either found nothing or didn’t find anything I wanted to charge them with. Have I had PC to search a vehicle for drugs or alcohol and not found any? Possibly. If you are asking me if I have ever violated a person rights by searching their vehicle with no PC, no and I have never had a search kicked by a Judge. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
This is usually my first question when a friend or family member asks about a search. I ask the hard questions that a Judge will ask in ruling on the legality of a search. I also get to ask the question they usually won’t answer on a forum and don’t have to answer in court… are you guilty? I have performed hundreds if not over a thousand vehicle searches. Unlike what I read about the cops on here I have never asked to search a vehicle that I wasn’t already going to search anyway. It was usually over drugs or liquor and I was simply letting the person I had stopped have some input into what was getting ready to happen to his future. Be cooperative, admit when you are caught dead bang, invoke the fifth, tell me I need a warrant, tell me your father is an attorney and I should be shaking in my shoes, tell me you will have my job, say you want a Command Officer on the scene, tell me you are related to the Chief… whatever. It was just me making conversation and determining how things were going to end when I found what I was looking for. The first and biggest issue in a vehicle search is alcohol. If it was apparent to me that someone had been drinking I already knew I could arrest them for DUI and tow their vehicle. Or If I approached their vehicle and saw an open liquor container, a joint, a gun, or pills in plain view; I didn’t need their permission. Second biggest issue was driver’s license violations. If you were suspended or revoked I was getting in your car because I had to do an inventory search prior to towing it. I found a lot of drugs and guns that way. You or your attorney can argue in front of a Judge and try to get the evidence kicked on an unlawful search. That’s fine with the Officers and fine with the attorneys. -
Yes, there is a learning curve. I was on the Police Pistol Team and bought three Colt Pythons at three different times because I was told they were spectacular. I was a Smith & Wesson shooter and did terrible with them. One of our Colt shooters said it was because I wasn’t use to the longer trigger pull. He shot when them and did great. I shot my 686 and beat him. Could I have learned to shoot it? Sure, but my conclusion was there was no need. I sure wish I had kept those Pythons though. They would have financed some pretty nice guns today.
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Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
His behavior is pretty relevant to this conversation as his story is the only one I know of personally of someone that has had the HCP revoked. He committed no crime at Radnor or Belle Meade. There is no law saying you can’t strap an AK pistol to your chest and walk through Radnor and there is no law that says he couldn’t walk through Belle Meade. There are laws saying citizens can’t do this, be we are talking about a special group with special privileges. I certainly am not standing up for him, his HCP revocation was the right thing for the state to do in my opinion. My point is that you don’t have to violate a law to lose your HCP. However… I believe 39-17-1351 clearly provides for an Officer disarming you at his discretion. And I believe 39-17-1352 clearly allows for the revocation of your permit if you violate any provision of 39-17-1351 through 39-17-1360. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Here’s another example… You don’t a 5th amendment right to refuse to answer Officers questions or refuse a field sobriety test during a DUI investigation. Sure you can refuse; but you can lose your license even if you aren’t found guilty of the DUI. Why? Because driving isn’t a right; and neither is carrying a gun in this state. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Of course you can’t be forced to testify against yourself when you are on trial. They would have had to grant you immunity; wouldn’t be much of a point in a trial then would there? Once you invoke the 5th in a trial of another, a Judge can grant you immunity. Then you have to testify or go to jail for contempt. If you lie, you can be charged with perjury. Rare, because the state has to be absolutely sure of what happened and what they think you will say, but it is done. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Doesn’t need a violation of the TCA. Goofballs HCP was yanked for his stupid act at Radnor Park, but he didn’t do anything illegal. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
As we have already seen, you don’t have to commit a crime to lose your HCP. We both have our opinions; until there is a ruling a person would have to rely on common sense. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Just as your fifth amendment rights can be removed by a Judge forcing you to testify, they can also be waived. You waived rights when you agreed to the conditions of an HCP. The intent of the legislature is clear; you do not a right to carry, you have simply purchased the privilege. To settle this once and for all I guess we would either need case law or an opinion from the AG. I don’t know if there is case law as I don’t have that available to me. I doubt there are many HCP holders that are willing to put their HCP at risk by telling a cop they don’t have to answer when asked about firearms. I would write my Congressmen and see if they would ask for an opinion, but I wouldn’t want to waste that on something I’m pretty sure I know the answer to. Maybe someone from DOS could give an opinion. Of course it’s all going to boil down to how and why a firearm became an issue, and why the Officer is asking. -
Road Rage involving Oak Ridge officers in Knoxville
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Now it goes to the DA. Police conclude probe into alleged road rage incident with ORPD officers » Knoxville News Sentinel -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
You have to answer the question “Are you armed or have any weapons in the vehicle?” Refusal to answer that question could result in the loss of your HCP if you are carrying. -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Rarely is a warrant needed for a vehicle search. It is an Officer Safety issue if he says it is; but you can battle that out later in court. But not only that, it doesn’t matter whether you are in the car or not. It’s illegal to carry a loaded gun in Tennessee on you, or in your car. So if the Officer thinks you look like a dirt bag or maybe thinks you have been drinking and don’t want you near a gun while he’s conducting a traffic stop; that’s fine….HCP or not… that’s the law. If he finds something in plain view he has PC for a search; no warrant needed. If you don’t have an HCP and tell him no when he asks if you have any firearms; he would need PC or permission to enter the vehicle. (You can’t get a warrant for a vehicle without PC and if you have PC you generally wouldn’t need a warrant) -
Is this a search and is it legal?
DaveTN replied to chances R's topic in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Yes, the Officer can secure the weapon during the stop. If you left it in the backpack in the car he can retrieve it. Anything he sees while he is in the car or anything he sees in the bag falls under plain view. He can’t start tossing your car unless he has PC, but if he saw anything in plain view while getting the bag or getting the gun out of the bag; you are hosed.