DaveTN

[quote name=RichardR' timestamp='13549hadn't' post='856743'] Zimmerman didn't cower in his truck, so obviously he's at fault for Martin violently attacking him. Because if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, Martin would not have attacked him & thus would still be alive. That is the crux of the "Zimmerman is guilty" arguement is that correct? [/quote]No that is not correct. If he hadnt chased TM down and scared him he would not be having to answer for his actions to a jury.

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1354931543' post='8'] If you were on your back having your head beat on the concrete what would you do? Since so many seem to want to rehash all of this again, answer that question. [/quote] I wouldn't have put myself or a neighbors innocent kid in that situation. If I did, and started getting my azz kicked, Im pretty sure I wouldn't make things worse by killing someone.

[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354918091' post='856635'] Some of us weigh the known f-a-c-t-s, testimony and indications based on the information made public thus far, others gobble up the version that the [i]media[/i] serves. [/quote] If you are trying to call me an arm chair quarterback or saying I am passing judgment on this guy; I am guilty as charged. As I have said many times; it’s what we do, it’s who we are. It’s just a discussion. I know the facts in this case and I know the media hype. The facts that are not in dispute do not look good for Zimmerman. I’m crystal clear on the “concepts”. Although I acknowledge that I know nothing about Florida criminal law. Again… I know this is not a popular opinion on this forum; but it is mine. I’m open to discussion of the facts or even our thoughts while we armchair quarter back. But I’m not going to have a discussion with anyone that is obviously making personal attacks. I stood up for Zimmerman when they tried to keep him in jail. He doesn’t appear to be a flight risk and his life is in danger if he is in jail; let him stay out. I could not believe it when the New Black Panthers put a hit out on him and both the Justice Department and the State of Florida failed to act on that. That was without a doubt race driven. However, now it’s time for a trial. [quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354907215' post='856568'] The DA did not have enough to charge GZ. After NBC released the doctored recording and the resulting public outcry and protests, they brought in anther special DA to file charges. Even if you think GZ is guilty, you must admit that there is no evidence there to support malice or premeditation needed for 2nd degree murder. [/quote] I will absolutely admit that I don’t think there is enough to convict on 2nd degree murder. I think his reckless and negligent actions rise to the level of Involuntary Manslaughter. However, in one of the first threads we had a forum member that said he was an expert on Florida law and that manslaughter was not an option. If a reckless, negligent act that led to death of an innocent person is not a crime in Florida; so be it, he will be acquitted. But I expect to hear the state present their case. Anything less is unsatisfactory. I kinda feel sorry for this guy. A prison sentence will probably be a death sentence for him. But then when I think about his actions; he shouldn’t walk free, that would not be justice.

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1354905690' post='856557'] Wasn't someone talking about being a Monday morning quarterback over in another thread? [/quote] If that's directed at me; we all are. That is what we do, that is all we can do. When this goes to trial there may be evidence presented that changes my mind. But right now, based on what I read I think this guy is guilty of murder. I don't live in Florida, I'm not on the jury and have absolutely zero chance of being called. Just like everyone else; its just my opinion. Sorry we don't agree.

To believe this murder is okay, you need to believe that Martin had no right to "stand his ground", and you need to believe that Zimmerman had no responsibility for his reckless actions that put him in the situation he was in. It was erroneously report that the cops investigated and didn't want to arrest Zimmerman until the haters got involved. It has since been proven that wasn't true; the lead detectives ask the DA for an arrest warrant after they interviewed Zimmer and the DA refused. Would the DA have refused if that had been a rich white kid? I don't know, but I know the Governor and the State Attorney General reviewed his decision and decided to bench him and send someone else in. Do I think race played in part in Zimmermans reckless conduct? I don't know. Did he think because the kid was black he didn't belong there? Would he have chased down the child of one of the local white families? I doubt it. I know that Zimmerman made a real bad choice in getting out of his truck and running that kid down. I believe that Martin was probably scared and for all we know may have seen the gun and was fighting for his life. Zimmerman caused that, and the fact that he caused a kid to attack him doesn't mean he gets a free pass to kill him. He set everything in motion; Martin was an innocent kid walking down the street minding his own business, and because Zimmerman intervened he is dead. Will justice be done at trial? I don't know, but lets get on with it. Will Zimmerman win a civil suit against NBC? I don't know but if he does Martins family will take every penny of it.

[quote name='Chucktshoes' timestamp='1354859574' post='856311'] Tell us how you really feel! [/quote] I have made no bones about it. I’m not on the “Innocent permit holder defended himself” bandwagon. Based on what I have read, this man accosted and murdered an innocent kid walking down the street. The elections over; let’s get on with a trial.

[quote name='mav' timestamp='1354848092' post='856230'] I have no animus towards LEOs, but I think this incident and some of the reasons defending such action are a pant load. Does anyone have any statistics on murders of LEOs at a traffic stop where the perpetrator had shown the officer their HCP and told the officer they had a gun? I have never seen any, but I would imagine if they existed it would be incredibly low if not next to nothing. Using the argument that people flip out at anytime doesn't wash either. At the end of the encounter, the officer hands the weapon and mag back to the owner. Maybe the owner is pissed they just got a speeding ticket and flip out once they get their handgun back. How long does it take to pop in a mag, rack the slide, and go to work? Not very long. So even though they were entirely up front about being armed, they were a threat initially, but are no longer? That really does't jive with me. I wouldn't get really upset over this incident, but I also wouldn't kiss the officer's butt because he was polite and couteous. I have absolutely no law enforcement experience, but in my mind the officer responding to the driver like, "Thank you for having your permit ready and telling me you armed. For everyone's safety, I would like you to keep you hands visible on the steering wheel while we are talking." would have been much more professional. [/quote] You would have to talk to the Officer to find out why he disarmed the OP, could be many things. But you are trained to stay alive. You are trained to act on what you see. Does the cop disarm everyone, or did he see something that caused that reaction? We don’t know, but the OP says he acted professionally and he wasn’t upset about it. To say people don’t shoot cops on traffic stops is ridiculous. To say the fact that you bought your privilege from the state makes it some kind of right that makes you less of a threat to a Police Officer is even ,more ridiculous. I’m not going to post the links because I don’t want to validate them, but search Google. Florida has a link that lists people that were killed in their state by permit holders. There is a “Study” that claims through news articles they found 7 Police Officers and 41 civilians killed by permit holders. You can find it yourself and see if it is creditable. I can’t find the story now, but it hasn’t been that long ago a cop had a permit holder on a traffic stop. After talking to him, he determined the guy might be drunk and tried to disarm him. They got in a struggle over the gun and the suspect shot him. He then stood over him and finished him off. Had he disarmed him when he first saw the gun, he might be alive today… who knows. We don’t have to make up stories or even look hard to find cases where permit holders shot cops, innocent citizens and even family members. It’s easy to ask for statistics on something you know doesn’t exist. Of course there aren’t statistics on permit holders that shoot cops. When you murder a cop or anyone else, no one generally cares if you had a permit or not. I really don’t want anyone adding that to a reporting form either. I don’t want to see it abused by the press the way it would be. I don’t pretend to be living at the foot of the cross and having a permit doesn’t make it so. Thank God our founding Fathers never intended anything in the Constitution to get a cop doing his job killed. If Jefferson or Franklin were out here dealing with what our cops deal with, they would be disarming people when they saw the need also.

Cop stops a beautiful blond driving a Corvette for speeding. He approaches and asks for her license and registration. She tells him she doesn’t have a license and she doesn’t have the registration the car isn’t hers. When he asks who the car belongs she to, she tells him it belonged to the old couple that lived next door to her, but she killed them. Yep, didn’t like them; killed them both. The cop calls for backup and a Command Officer. The Command Officer arrives and talks to the woman. He asks why she killed the people that own the car. She said she had no idea what he was talking about and gave him the registration. He asks if she has a license and she gives that to him. He then asks her “Why do you think my Officer would say you didn’t have a license, and that you killed the owners of this car?” She replied, “I have no idea; the lying SOB probably said I was speeding too!”

I think George Zimmerman may well be a racist and predatory villain, and I didn’t hear the edited version. Either this clown doesn’t listen to his attorneys, or he has the dumbest attorney’s in history.

I was there for the 60[sup]th[/sup] anniversary. It is something I will never forget. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/patriot.gif[/img]

I’m calling [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/bs.gif[/img] I don’t believe for one second that if he put that video on YouTube he hasn’t had many contacts from people that would knock him TFO just for a free airplane ride. What’s he doing with all the people that are taking that offer? [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/confused.gif[/img]

The BATF people need to tell Issa and the President of Mexico to go pound sand. Maybe the Mexican officials will give Issa a big retirement ranch in Mexico after he is impeached for placing the lives of Libyans working with the U.S. in danger.

[quote name='RevScottie' timestamp='1354817650' post='855928'] This is the only one I found concerning threats: [/quote] [b]39-13-101. Assault, and 39-13-102 Aggravated assault are both crimes in this state. One is a misdemeanor the other a felony. Neither require anything more than threats.[/b]

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354771453' post='855616']As I said before, the man who is gonna shoot you at a traffic stop isn't gonna show you his hcp, and let you take his weapon. [/quote] [quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354771453' post='855616'] To bad [u][b]most officers [/b][/u]will never have to answer for their reasons for doing most of what they do. I may seem jaded or upset, but I've seen one to many police officers [u][b]flip on lights to run the red[/b][/u], speed to nowhere in the cruiser that they drive home on the tax payers dime, and basically abuse the power given to them by the citzen. This is not meant as a blanket statement and I have the utmost respect for those honest LEO's who don't take an oppurtunity to step on your toes when they get the chance. But I have the utmost contempt for those that do things because they can, not because they should. And I will not support officers who do such things, including disarming an honest citzen who has done nothing wrong, [u][i][b]just so the officer can get a warm and fuzzy[/b][/i][/u]. [/quote] This is probably a waste of time, but here is my two cents anyway. How do you know what a person is going to do on a traffic stop? Because I’ve done thousands of them and I don’t know. Go work the streets with a cop and let us know if you think their discretion should be taken away. I had a couple come in and make a complaint on me because I turned on my overheads, blew a light, shut them off and continued on normally. They called me in and had me explain to them why I did it and played them back the communications tape. They were embarrassed at the results and apologized for making accusations. Unfortunately you don’t always know what’s causing what you see. You see it and assume the worst; others (like me) see it and give the cops the benefit of the doubt. I openly support my local Police Officers, Troopers, and Deputies and appreciate the job they do. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/patriot.gif[/img]

A Cookeville, TN cop did the same thing to a boxer puppy; only he killed it. Nothing happened to him, the family did win their lawsuit though.

Any of the top rounds will do the job, Hydra-shoks, SXT, Gold Dot, whatever. Talons are back if you want them. What was Winchester supposed to do; argue that their round wasn’t any better at killing people than their competitors? So they took them off the market for a while.

I’m sure someone in Nashville carries one, but if you have to order MSC gets you your stuff the next day. [url="http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm"]http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm[/url]

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1354668598' post='854998'] BTW, I learned today you can not use duct tape for the temporary repair of a busted fuel line, even if you only wanted it to last for 3 miles. [/quote] Did you try melting it around the line with a BIC lighter, that's what I always do.

Why would a Veteran be deemed mentally incompetent to handle their own financial affairs? What happens then? Is this something the Veteran wants? If someone is suicidal or homicidal they shouldn’t have access to guns… period. I don’t care if they are a Veteran or the Pope. But that determination would have to be made at the same time they are deciding if he can balance his checkbook. I know plenty of people that are mentally incompetent to handle their own financial affairs; but it’s because they are stupid and were born that way. I don’t know if I would want to be around some of them if they were handling firearms; but I’m not sure one has anything to do with the other.

Good grief, are cops the only ones with discretion? [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img] As a cop it was up to me if you got arrested or not (except for felonies, DV, or DUI). If I agreed with why you broke the law; I could let you go. I would think store managers have some discretion when it comes to Company Policy. The conversation should have gone something like this… Store Manager: You violated Company policy, so you can’t be employee of the month this month. You were free and clear and could have left the night Manager for dead meat; but you didn’t. I think your actions may well have saved both his live and yours. You proved that you can do the right thing under extreme pressure. So I’m giving you a raise. Employee: Okay, thank you. Store Manager: We’ll talk next month about the employee of the month thing. Oh and BTW, next time you engage an Armed Robber; kill him, don’t let him run off.

The people that are standing behind this decision need to be outed publicly by name. This man was not violating a policy; he was saving another mans life. No more AutoZone for me.... of course they won't care. The good news is though, because of this story he will probably get a better job. Not many people could do what he did under that kind of stress.

Just got this DVD in the mail from the Garand Collectors Association. Nice surprise; I didn’t expect it. Very good documentary on the Garand plus a few examples of special rifles. Medal of Honor recipient Hector Cafferata is in the documentary, don’t miss that full interview in the bonus material. Even after the video there is no end to the controversy on how to pronounce the name. So keep saying it however you like. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img] I use the GCA for my club qualifications for CMP. The magazine they put out to members is also pretty informative. [url="http://www.thegca.org/"]http://www.thegca.org/[/url]

[quote]The accounts surfaced in an Albany County Family Court battle between one of the officers and her estranged husband, [b]who questioned his wife's decision[/b]. In court papers, the probation officer, Kelly Miazga, said she allowed her sons — ages 9 and 10 at the time — to handle her weapon on Oct. 26, 2011.[/quote] I'm pretty sure that's a given. Anyone that's been through a divorce knows they can get nasty.

[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354485776' post='853910'] I don't know, Kalifornia, ILL and New Yuck seen to had success in that area. [/quote] Those three states make up about 20% of the manufacturing in this country. Be careful about splitting from them. Those who cannot remember the past are destine to repeat it.

What optics is on your Savage and Stevens vs. your AR. “Grouping” has everything to do with the shooters ability to repeat POA.