TGO David

Thanks for taking the time to think it through. EXACTLY.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=general#faq_general_advertising Thanks.

When staple guns and firearms mate...

I can see where buying a firearm because it has that capability might be a personal preference to some degree, but actually relying on it is foolhardy at best. Unless death is a personal preference also.

1. Good with your hands 2. Smarter than a monkey Easily done. Go forth and prosper.

The subject of an automatic handgun's "second strike capability" tends to come up frequently in discussions both online and in the real world. I firmly believe that second-strike is bad procedure and this post will seek to explain why. Definition of Second Strike Second Strike capability refers to an automatic handgun's capability to deliver a follow-up primer strike with either a striker or a hammer just by manipulating the trigger a second time. Often the follow-up strike may be at a heavier trigger pull than the initial "pre-cocked" trigger pull of the first attempt. Examples of automatic handguns with this capability are those from SIG Arms with their DAK trigger, those from Heckler and Koch with their LEM trigger, and those from any manufacturer which are marked as DA/SA (Double Action / Single Action) or as DAO (Double Action Only). Why Double-Strike Is Bad Proceedure My feelings on this matter relate to civilian self defense situations. There may be instances where second-strike capability is a desirable quality for a field service pistol in military combat situations or in law enforcement situations, although the latter to a much lesser degree. To put it simply, relying on a follow-up trigger pull to resolve a problem inside the chamber of your defensive firearm is a questionable proposition that wastes critical time on an uncertain variable. The uncertain variable being the condition of your weapon and the condition of the ammunition that may, or worse yet may not be present in the chamber. Condition of Your Weapon: Is the chamber empty? Did you really remember to chamber a round before carrying it? Did you forget and leave the chamber empty the last time you finished cleaning the weapon? Are you 100% certain that there is a round under the hammer? Condition Of Your Ammunition: Is the round in your chamber good? Is it a factory dud? Will striking a dud primer a second time have any better odds of igniting it? What if the primer had been exposed to oils somewhere along the line and is no longer good? If you rely on a second-strike to resolve either of these two problems, it requires two things to happen in a terribly short period of time: Your brain must comprehend that the firearm did not FIRE when you pulled the trigger. Your brain must override the confusion of the former, and instruct your finger to pull the trigger a second time. These two things on a good day at the range will befuddle most average shooters. These two things on a bad night in a darkened alleyway will potentially de-rail the thought process of a person who is being attacked by a mugger or a rapist. Statistics bear out that most self defense encounters occur within what is consider to be conversation distance. 10-15 feet. If your attacker is that close to you, armed not even with a firearm but with a knife, you do not have sufficient time to draw, aim, pull the trigger and CLICK ... CLICK twice before deciding to rack the slide and try again. Within that short period of time, your attacker is now most likely upon you, stabbing you to death with his knife or pinning you to the ground to rape you. You have now unwittingly set yourself up to become a statistic. That being said, I am convinced that you should neither rely upon a firearm's second strike capability when shooting for fun, when training, or in a self-defense situation. The more desirable alternative is to employ a comprehensive "Failure Plan" when something goes wrong when you pull the trigger. Failure Plan or Failure Drill Statistics bear out that the vast majority of weapons failures in combat can be resolved through a three step process known as Tap, Rack, Bang. TAP: Strike the magazine of your weapon, upward into the firearm's magazine well, firmly with the palm of your hand. This ensures that your magazine is properly seated and that the first round is ready to be fed into the chamber. RACK: Firmly grip the slide and pull it fully backward and then release the slide. Do NOT let your hand ride the slide back into battery. Allow the slide to ram itself home under the full power of the recoil spring. This ensures that the slide has proper force and momentum to strip a round from the top of the magazine and shove it into battery. BANG: Reacquire your target and pull the trigger. A failure drill works for any automatic weapon. Dual Action Only. Dual Action / Single Action. Striker Fired. Hammer Fired. Handgun or rifle. And ideally it should be incorporated into your routine shooting procedure even at the firing range. Tap, rack, bang. Do not rely upon a follow-up trigger pull to resolve a problem. Murphy Proof the situation by simplifying the solution. Practice it and live it. It could save your life.

Second-strike capability is bad juju. If a round doesn't go *BANG* when you pull the trigger, your immediate response should be a failure drill. Tap, rack, bang. When seconds count, you want to Murphy Proof the situation. Suppose I'm your attacker. I am 10 feet from you and I have a knife. You draw, aim and *CLICK* your gun doesn't fire. You *CLICK* again because it's a bad round or you simply forgot to chamber a round and wasted precious seconds to try a "second strike" with the trigger on an empty chamber. Guess where I am now. I'm no longer 10 feet from you. I've got my knife buried in your guts and I'm stabbing the hell out of you, repeatedly. You never get a chance to rack the slide and the police report subsequent to your murder shows that you had a fine DA/SA pistol that had an empty chamber or a bad round in it. Had you immediately chambered a fresh round when it went *CLICK* the first time, you might still be alive and I might be the guy on the autopsy table. Think about it.

Bookmarking this thread for later so I can use it as further proof to my wife that I need a new Doberman.

This is getting out of hand and has gotten quite a bit of attention from the moderators. Let me close this thread by copying Eddie's (Molonlabetn) thoughts from the staff area: *Emphasis mine.

What a handsome little devil. Kid ain't bad lookin either! Congratulations again!

I really like Eagle Industries cases. You should check them out. http://www.eagleindustries.com/home.php?cat=18

You're flinching because you are anticipating the recoil.

Whenever I try to broaden my horizons, I tend to want to improve upon things rather than take a few steps back. Ruger makes fine revolvers and rimfire rifles, but they don't yet make an automatic that I would want to own. The 4516 that you carry now is nothing like the M&P lineup. But it does appear that you like heavy, clunky, brick-like firearms based on the ones that you have listed so far. Maybe a SIG would be more to your liking.

Do yourself a favor and check out the Smith & Wesson M&P 45. It's a lot more ergonomic and better built than either of those two.

More like 3 months from door to door. You can almost set your clock by this: 1. 30 days from time your check is cashed to when you go pending 2. 30 days from when you go pending to when your Form 1 is approved Typically it's at least 20 days before your check is cashed. But those two steps that I listed above seem to be the current trend based on a dozen or more that I've seen posted about elsewhere.

In another year or two, we're going to need to keep our wives well clear of anyone else who has just had a baby. Newborns sell themselves!

Sooner or later, we do tend to forget how gruesome it looked during the labor process and start becoming enamored with that region of the female anatomy once again. Just the same way that our wives forget how mind-bendingly painful it was and start wanting to have another baby.

They aren't running anything here. They are loaning money to these businesses to keep them from tanking. It's not a government program. Actually they do not have to seek congressional approval for this at all. It does suck that the people at fault are likely going to just walk away fat and happy, but not from this particular deal. Rather they already profited. But if any wrongdoing took place, it could catch up to them. Remember ENRON? As for us being left holding the bag, again this is a loan. It's not a handout. The taxpayers shouldn't get stung for the difference unless these companies default on the loans. In which case the government will seize every asset they have and liquidate them, which should offset the loan amount. This contributed to the devaluation of the dollar a long time ago. We're just seeing the public face of it finally.

I would suspect that the Fed is paying out a lot less by propping out these companies, which is money that they will get back as it is a loan and not a gift... than they would have paid out in welfare, unemployment, medical assistance, housing assistance, etc. if they had allowed these companies to collapse and displaced hundreds of thousands of employees and rendered void hundreds of thousands of insurance policies and mortgages. It's the lesser of two evils. On a more positive note, the ridiculous glut of cheap housing seems to be drying up finally and the builders responsible for flooding the market with houses built w/o a contract on them are going out of business like crazy. Soon, it will be a seller's market again. All of this is just the economy correcting itself for the past 15 years of artificially overinflated wealth. It happens every so often.

I tend to be pretty against subsidizing anything, but these bailouts aren't protecting the companies so much as they are protecting the customers (mortgage and policy holders) and the employees. It's in the best interest of the economy to ensure that we don't end up with a bunch of unemployed people who's mortgages are suddenly being called due. I blame the big-wigs at these companies and think they should lose their jobs. But I don't blame the workers or the consumers.

Understood. Mine is in component form also with the upper and lower being about 30 miles apart from each other. This is our first together but I've got two from a previous marriage a long time ago. They're the perfect age to babysit.

I try not to look at it from the angle that the Government is bailing out the bad investments but rather that the government is protecting a few hundred thousand gainfully employed citizens from being thrown out on their asses if AIG were left to close the doors. AIG employs a lot of people. Quite a few here in Nashville. If the company goes belly up, those people are suddenly without jobs.

Congratulations!!!! On both the birth of your son and the delivery of your Form 1. I'm anxiously awaiting both of those things myself, but it looks like Form 1 will come back to me much sooner than my son's due date. That being said... Pics of your SBR???

Wow... just for all of you who are getting your permits suddenly, I am going to smack my wife. Apparently hers was jamming up the whole damn system all along.

For what it's worth, JWP has always treated me right and he's never advertised a 30/30 lever action as being used by US commandos in Equador or anything like that. I tend to look past some of the comments made by any company stating that their product is the best out there but don't find it to be too peculiar when they do. If a company doesn't have faith in it's own products, then why should the consumer. Some companies are just a little more vocal.