TGO David

Copy that. At one point I was one of those "muzzle in the air" guys too but along the way someone showed me a better way so I've been using it ever since. I'll tell you, one of the worst parts about having a short barrel carbine and being told to sling it over your shoulder is that the sling position and length of the barrel combine to result in either the muzzle being pointed at the base of your own neck or at anyone / everyone behind and to the sides of you. REALLY not a smart idea. I of course refused to comply with such an asinine command and attempted to explain the fallacy of the command to the RO in a very calm, very genuine manner. Suffice it to say that it didn't go very well from that point forward. I would have rather been ejected from the range myself than be forced to transport my rifle in a manner unsafe to others present. Somehow we just left it as a mutual disagreement and nothing else came of that, but the tone for the rest of the day was set.

Can you guarantee that a rifle being held with the muzzle straight into the sky will be held at precisely a 90 degree angle to flat ground and that the trajectory will not deviate into the "10 degrees above the horizon" realm that you threw out? I can't. I can, however, guarantee that the muzzle will remain pointed at the ground within a safe arc immediately in front of me if I carry it in such a manner. The margin for disaster is significantly reduced. Are you debating that or are you just debating that an aerial shot carries much risk for those on the ground?

Since I'm reading what you have written on the Internet, can I likewise discard it as being erroneous? Dismissing information because of how it was found is a pretty silly way to argue a point.

Apparently Myth Busters did a segment on shooting into the air a while back. They found that bullets typically return to earth at about 90% of their muzzle velocity. Still enough to hurt someone or dent a car. Of course there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the effect that people can be or are killed by aerial shooting. Either way, anyone shooting into the air either intentionally or unintentionally has no control over where the round is going to come down. It's no wonder, then, that many agencies and private trainers teach muzzle-down as a way to control where an errant round might go. Simple logic dictates that the latter affords a higher degree of predictability.

http://www.iansa.org/regions/aerial-gunfire.htm First hit on a Google search.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he might have spent some time over there given the inclusion of "Iraqi Freedom" in the signature image.

I ordered them from ZombieTargets.net

Some calibers just don't feel right in a plastic handgun. 10mm is one of them.

That gentleman is spot-on regarding the political nature of self defense shootings. The best thing to do is keep your statement simple and to the point (as has already been covered) and then keep your mouth shut until you get to speak to your attorney. A few hours spent detained by the police is better than a few years spent incarcerated by the State. Zip your mouth and wait for your attorney. What you don't say can't be held against you! But what you do, can!

SPP is on the radar as becoming the next recognized hate crime.

For the record, upon reviewing the OHGC forum this morning I do see where the rule regarding full auto firing is stated as being in the 25 yard PISTOL PIT only. It was previously my understanding that it was only allowed at 25 yards. In that respect, the use of the Krinkov AK at the rifle lane should have been restricted to just semi-automatic fire to be in line with the rules. The full-auto bursts should have occurred within the pistol pit, in which case someone else's butt would have still gotten chewed. While this was indeed an error on our part, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that: -- It was the only error that we made, to my knowledge. -- It occurred later in the day and was centered around one person only. The automatic fire incident was only a small part of the day and must be considered in context with the treatment our group had already received well before it happened. George was already unhappy with our presence on the range and had already confronted several of our members and guests with random, imagined misdeeds. Events that were accompanied at least twice with recommended remedies that were not only wrong but also unsafe.

Joe, sign me up for an orange hat. Can I mail-order one?

Ministry of Religion?

Seems like George really doesn't need to be an RO. Which is the gist of what I will be trying to address with the OHGC BoD soon. Frankly I'm not even 100% sure he is a current member given that his member ID badge was a lime green "2007" badge and not one of the current red "2008" badges. All I know is, I'm wearing one of my blaze orange hunting hats the next time I shoot there. For safety's sake.

Ah... I see you have the Microsoft Open License Monkey.

Any of those targets could be considered to represent "Minute of Bad-guy" hits and would result in your attacker being on the ground. It's always good to push yourself to be better and improve your accuracy, but there's no need to beat yourself up about it either. There's always next time.

I'm retracting my previous statements about CP being an alright guy. The more that I have read, including some excerpts from the book Blackhawk Down the more I see him as a RINO who is likely positioning himself to be Barack's Secretary of Defense.

My wife browses the forums almost every night over my shoulder but hasn't been online much. Maybe she'll get on here some more now.

Sundays seem to be a more popular day to shoot at OHGC, which was compounded by the fact that they had an organized Muzzle Loader Match yesterday also. The club usually denotes whether the range is closed for a function, but this wasn't the case yesterday. I suppose those guys just assumed that they would have enough rifle lanes for their purposes, and they did. They just didn't like the fact that we had loud automatic weapons. Clearly George (and the muzzle loading crowd) wanted us to leave. George was dying for us to do something wrong so that he could throw us out, which is a complete crock of crap considering that my $50 membership is just as good as any of theirs is. Furthermore, we generated $60 worth of guest fees for them yesterday. I'm become a little indignant when someone implies that my money isn't as good as someone else's ... and that was stated in not so many words yesterday. Again, I'll be taking it up with their BoD.

While that might have made it a little more entertaining than it already was, no. Contrary to popular thought, you don't have to be .mil or ex-mil to know how to handle a firearm properly. As evidenced by the fact that George was proudly wearing a paratrooper pin on his orange hat and still insisted that I needed to carry my carbine around like Saddam. I think George was jumping out of planes a little before the M16A1 was introduced so his knowledge of the modern M4 may be somewhat nonexistent.

Which of these two illustrates correct muzzle discipline for carrying a carbine on the grounds of OHGC? #1 Muzzle in the sky. #2 Position SUL. Muzzle to the ground, tightly controlled within a 180* arc immediately in front of the operator, confined to the operator's person via tight strap around torso. #1 seems like an inherently bad idea to me given that Sir Isaac Newton's laws stated centuries ago that what goes up must indeed come down. In the event of a negligent discharge, a round fired skyward would potentially result in damage or injury to personnel or property whereas a round fired into the ground stops there with minimal hazard to anyone but the firearm's operator.

Despite whatever you may have been taught; despite whatever you may have heard; despite common sense and logic... these guys are doing it WRONG: Carrying your carbine in Position SUL with the muzzle tightly controlled, carbine tightly strapped against your body, safety on and finger nowhere near the trigger is NOT the safe way to practice muzzle discipline. The correct way, according to George... is this: Rifle held with muzzle pointed in the air. PERIOD. Gravity is not in play on the grounds of OHGC. What goes up will NOT come down as long as the negligent discharge happens on OHGC property. There will be absolutely NO damage to personnel or property by a round returning to earth should your weapon somehow be discharged while you carry it with the muzzle aimed toward the sky. This has been a public service announcement. (and is pretty much how the whole thing got started yesterday)

Who, me? I figured that George had given us more than enough grief for the day so asking the other RO about his badge was just a small way of saying thanks to them all for giving us the free rectal exams. The guy actually looked at the dirt when I asked him what department he was with. Man he was strutting around that place like a cowboy ready to shoot someone (sorry, had to) with the badge and his 1911 rig set up for weak-side draw. When Dan and George were telling each other how nice the other looked, HCP Badge Guy was hovering on the periphery the entire time. Just in case a cop was needed. He probably has them on speed-dial.

That's freakin cool!