TGO David

#1... Being okay with taxing those who make more than you is simple human envy at it's most basic level. It's only okay with you because it doesn't affect you. Or at least it doesn't affect you on your income taxes. But here's where it will affect you. Your employer may make more than $250,000 per year. If he is taxed at a higher rate, then his take-home earnings decreases. If his take home earnings decrease, then he will start looking for other ways to cut back expenses. Since this is a free-market economy and since Tennessee is a "shall work" State, he can make those cuts wherever he sees fit. Your job may be the one that takes the axe. The companies from which you buy goods and services will be taxed at a higher rate than they are now. This means that the cost of those goods and services will go up to offset the losses. You will see the associated cost of food, clothing, medicines, vehicles, entertainment items, guns... well, pretty much damn near everything go up as well. You end up paying for the tax increase on the "wealthy" every time you stand in front of the cash register at the store. Some companies will be pushed out of business because of the increased taxes paid to the Obama government. When these companies fold, you will no longer be able to buy goods or services from them. You may have even been employed by them. You and all of your former co-workers are now jobless. I support the idea of a FAIR TAX. Tax people on their purchases. Those who consume more, pay more. Those who save more, pay less. It puts the burden on the people who live lavish lifestyles at the expense of not preparing for their future financial security. Tax cuts would be given to those who donate to charities and other philanthropic causes. This would give the "wealthy" a chance to invest back into society willfully rather than have their money taken from them by government extortion. Your idea that someone who makes +$250,000 a year should be penalized for that will only serve to kill the American entreprenurial spirit. You are supporting a paradigm by which those who strive to do better, produce more, advance themselves through education and in return be paid higher wages will be punished for their success. It will create a whole new generation of people who don't want to work and who expect... no, demand that the government pay them to breathe. Congratulations! Well thought through! #2... Cutting Military spending at a time in our nation's history when our citizens are at a heightened risk of attack on domestic soil by terrorist regimes is utterly ridiculous. Why would you support that??? #3... The Patriot Act needs some overhauling, but it's not the sinister bit of legislation that everyone makes it out to be. I agree that those who forfeit freedom for security deserve neither. However I think that if you scrap the entire plan, you are seriously throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Thoughts???

Just checking back in this morning and can tell you that Neero prefers to be spooned. That is all.

You don't want to go to jail because you're a former cop, and former cops don't do too well in there from what I've heard.

I have noticed that at World Market on several occasions now, mostly because of their really cool product packaging. I may have to pick some up soon and give it a try.

Wait... no... wait... no... Rabbi???

It sounds like the new Hero Gear ad made it out before it was supposed to. Oops.

Len is too good of a guy to stop anyone from expressing their opinion, even if the opinion comes in the form of a harsh remark aimed squarely at him. That's one of the reasons I respect him as much as I do and why he's a moderator here on TGO. I've taken the liberty to remove some of the superfluous remarks from this thread in an attempt to steer it back on topic. The things removed added no value to the thread, nor did they express a view on the issues that could not have been expressed in a more congenial manner. In fact... one or two of the comments removed were my own, so I too owe Len an apology for messing up his thread. That said, let's get back to arguing. But do it nicely.

And I shudder to think of what is going to become of our military. After we are withdrawn from Iraq, the chopping will begin.

You're assuming that we will have a Republican controlled House or Senate, and furthermore assuming that an Obama Administration wouldn't get the chance to appoint a few more Left-leaning Justices to the Supreme Court. Any of those things would potentially jeopardize the interpretation of individual rights under the 2nd Amendment. And I agree with that. But what better smoke-screen to get something "less important to the American people" express-lined through legislation? The American people are so preoccupied with the economy that it might be all too easy to slip some anti-2nd Amendment changes in under the radar.

Do they have Humor 101 as an elective? Maybe Advanced Placement Sarcasm?

I will reword it to state that there are only two possible outcomes. I'll leave the statistics to people who touch themselves at the thought of such things.

Len is a big boy and a moderator. He's perfectly capable to taking care of the thread and the comments being made. Of course, he's doubly cursed in that he is a moderator, since a moderator who moderates a thread that he or she is participating in will invariably be accused of censorship.

Correct. Forgive me for failing to more properly state that there are TWO POSSIBLE OUTCOMES. The odds of either happening are contingent upon variables that, while wired to the gills with adrenaline and suffering from post traumatic stress, I am not going to take chances on. That's why my lawyer gets paid the big bucks. I'll get right on that. If they have a class in common sense, maybe you can enroll and then we can telecommute together.

Are you getting talking ads on this site??? If so, your computer already has spyware / adware on it and you need to get that addressed promptly. Some malware sees banner ads on sites like this one and overwrites those ads with their own. Some of their own can be pretty pornographic. One of our other members had that happen to them once before and asked me why we were letting those kinds of places advertise here. For the record, we only allow people or companies that offer goods and services relevant to the firearms community to advertise. If you're seeing anything other than that, you have a problem.

I've made my case very clearly in this thread already. Until you come back with some explanation of what the 3rd possible outcome is in a justified shoot where you elect to keep your mouth shut (i.e. 1. Get taken to jail, 2. Not taken to jail, 3. ______ ? ) I have nothing further to add.

Firefox + AdBlock Plus.

I'm waiting on the 3rd option. If you elect to exercise your right to remain silent, the police will either take you to jail after a self defense shooting, or they won't. That is pretty damn 50/50 to me. Maybe the 3rd option is that the officers will sit with you on your couch and watch television until your lawyer arrives.

I'm guessing about three months, give or take. :-\

That's not the angle you want to take here, jack. http://www.tncivilsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=469#p3652

Whether or not you go to jail after you inform the police that you're going to keep your mouth shut is up to them. Whether or not you stay there for a long piece of your life is up to the court and will depend in some degree to what you said when you had diarrhea of the mouth. As I have said before, and as you seem to be intent on ignoring, you need to resign yourself to the following facts: Exercising your right to remain silent may land you temporarily in jail. Exercising your right to remain silent is important if you want to give your attorney a chance to review the situation and decide what course of action is in your best interst. Waiving your right to remain silent could land you in jail for a lot, lot longer. You need to have these discussions with yourself and decide what you are going to do before you ever decide to strap a firearm onto your person and carry it for your self defense. If sitting in jail for a few hours train-wrecks the plans for your life, you might want to reconsider carrying a gun. Or at least be willing to take the 50/50 gamble that anything you say to the police (things that can and will be held against you in a court of law) might put you away for a really, really long time no matter how innocent you are.

You either will go to jail or you won't go to jail. Did you pull some third option that none of us know about straight from your ass? Is the third option that you will be exiled into the barren wasteland to wander the rest of your life? Does it involve foot rubs and ice cream cones? What in the name of all that's good and holy is the 3rd option??? I'm waiting with baited breath!!! I didn't ignore anything. And for that matter, you conveniently ignored the accusation that you are a quote-****er. You know, someone that ****s with people's quotes to make them suit their own agendas.That's wonderful that you have taken a class or two. AWESOME. Now go back and talk to your instructors and find out if they advocate telling the police everything you know on the scene, immediately following a good shoot. If they do, demand a refund. If they don't, you need to pay closer attention next time so that you're getting your money's worth. And don't mind the age thing. I was a 23 year old know-it-all once and I grew up and realized that half the **** I thought I knew back then, I didn't. Now that I'm 36, I have successfully weeded out a lot of misinformation and am more confident that what I know now is actually pretty ****ing accurate. By the time I'm 60, I should be a god damned genius. I have family who has spent time in prison because they cooperated a little too much. Does that count? My lawyer has an amazing ability to pull people's asses out of the fire so I'd say he is pretty magical. The DA isn't some all-powerful being. He has to make a case against you and has to make that case stick. Do you want to go up against him alone or do you want a competent attorney on your side?That's the choice here, sport. Go it alone and make a big statement to the police at 2am while some guy's laying face down in a puddle of blood on your kitchen floor, or play it safe and get a pro on your side before you start running your mouth. Call me a wimp, but I'm going to go with the attorney.

And for the record... If some miscreant breaks into my house and I shoot him dead inside my house, when the police arrived I would probably say something like this: Officer, the deceased broke into my house. He was uninvited, I was in for for my life and that of my family so I shot him. My firearm is in my holster on my right hip and is loaded. I am more than willing to cooperate with your investigation but I insist on speaking to my attorney first for my own sake. That is all that I am willing to say about this shooting until I have my attorney present. Chances are, a good cop will recognize the situation for what it is and my statement included enough information to clarify that it was a self-defense shooting and I was the victim of a crime in progress. The officer may at his or her discretion elect to take me to the police station for detainment until such time that they receive a statement from me via my attorney or with my attorney present. They would be well within their rights to take me in. I've just killed a person, be it in self-defense or not. Perhaps they will elect to let me stay at home with my family and then come make a statement later. Perhaps not. Either way, they aren't getting anything more than that from me without my attorney's involvement. Shooting the guy who was attacking me or my family in this situation was Part 1 of the protection of my loved ones. Protecting us from loss of freedom (mine), loss of income (mine), loss of home and property (ours) and from incarceration (mine) is Part 2 of the self-defense plan. Part 2 is my attorney presenting the facts in a light favorable to the case that it was a justified shoot and keeping ME out of prison. Anyone who fails to think about Part 2 is setting up a potentially bad scenario. You just took care of your and your family's immediate health and well being by using deadly force to protect them. Why are you failing to do the same regarding your legal well being?

I'm trying to figure out why you would want to spend $600-ish on an upper that requires even more expensive ammunition than the 5.56 upper.

I will never understand people who think that spending 24-48 hrs sitting in the local clink while they wait to speak with their attorney is such a horrible outcome. Comparing the wait to make a statement after getting legal counsel, to the potential risk of spending the next 20 years behind bars with a permanent felony record because you misspoke, or couldn't accurately remember the exact facts of the encounter because you were completely jacked up on adrenaline, etc... it seems like the obvious, prudent choice is to express your desire to cooperate after you see your attorney, and then keep your mouth shut. But I'm sure your experience at 23 years of age far outweighs that of the vast number of professional law enforcement officers cum personal defense trainers / expert witnesses / legal consultants who agree with what I've said. Ultimately, it's your life sport. If you want to risk it because of an overwhelming need for catharsis after a good shoot, then tell the nice officers all about it. You've got a 50% chance it will go well for you. You also have a 50% chance it won't.