TGO David

Oh, you know how it goes. Hourly wage employee doesn't feel like they are being paid to think critically whenever something out of the normal occurs, so when the screw doesn't go into the slide easily, they apply more force to make it go in. Common sense would tell a person to stop, back it out and maybe even send that slide into the Defect Pile. This particular person either didn't have any common sense, or chose not to use it, or decided that Smith & Wesson wasn't paying them enough for it. Eh, at this point I just want a new slide with clean, not butchered threads in all of the appropriate holes, and I want it to happen sometime before Spring 2022.

These are pretty small, thin screws. None of them appear to be made of "quality" metal. Cheap Chinese junk, most likely.

I think any time I spend trying to find a machinist to take a swing at this locally would just add time to the delay of getting it back from Smith & Wesson. The 6-8 weeks part is what I find totally unsatisfactory.

How would you propose that I get that screw out? There is nothing left to grab ahold of. The two-month wait is now the cost of not ruining the gun. It's infuriating, yes, but trying something more drastic could damage the gun, which Smith & Wesson certainly would be under no obligation to repair. At this point I don't feel that I have any good alternatives than play their game.

This is my new Smith & Wesson M&P M2.0 Optics Ready handgun. I ordered it right after Christmas and picked it up on Thursday, January 7th, 2022. Any day that you get a new firearm is a good day! Or so we've always thought. The trigger on the new model is honestly pretty great. It resolves many of the gripes that people have had about the M&P trigger in the past. They have done away with the hinged design and moved to a flat-faced polymer trigger with an integral safety "blade" much like a Glock has. I supposed that Glock's patent on this has expired since everyone else is producing clones of the Glock based on the Gen 3 and Gen 4 designs. So, it was nice to see that Smith & Wesson has done away with the goofy hinged trigger. Trigger reset is pretty good, also. It still is not quite as crisp and snappy as that of a Glock but, honestly, I don't get wrapped around the axle about trigger reset. As long as it's there and does its job, that is what matters. If you are shooting the gun in a class setting or, God forbid, in an active situation where someone's life is on the line, you really aren't going to notice the tactile reset anyway. Just my opinion, perhaps, but I obsess over minutia and cannot find a single recorded case of a police officer or other stating that they remember how the trigger reset felt in that kind of situation. Most folks don't even accurately remember how many rounds they fired, so expecting them to wax poetically about how the trigger felt under stress is just stupid. But I digress. The point of this post is not to write a love poem about triggers. No, the point is darker and less happy than that. This is my brand-new M&P a few seconds after I attempted to remove the Allen screws that hold the factory polymer blanking plate from the optics cradle on the slide. As you can see, the screw on the ejection-port side of the slide has stripped completely out. This was with moderate torque and using a quality Wiha-brand Allen key to remove it. The screw felt as if it were either coated with thread-locking compound or, worse, cross threaded and then driven home by some ape at the Smith & Wesson assembly line. I was furious. Immensely so. But not as furious as I was after calling Smith & Wesson and asking them how I could return it to them for some help. This is my reaction after calling Smith & Wesson and learning that they would require SIX TO EIGHT WEEKS to service it. You read that right. It will ship this back to them via FedEx 2-Day Air after which time it will take approximately two months for it to sit in their service queue, after which time they will look at it, do something about the problem, and then return it to me. And hopefully in the condition it should have been from the beginning. I understand that manufacturing problems happen, but service after the sale is where the rubber really meets the road and Smith & Wesson need to step up their game. I would recommend that they start by reducing the wait time for service. A target of 1-2 weeks round-trip seems like a reasonable target to me. This isn't a $600 television or some other consumer good that could be returned to the store where it was purchased for an exchange or a refund. The only option is to send it back to the manufacturer and, ideally, receive it back quickly with all problems resolved. I am lucky. I have other guns to carry. But can you imagine being someone who doesn't have those options and who can't afford to roll the dice on a $600 gamble that their new gun is going to function properly? That person would be screwed. Anyway, being mechanically inclined I asked Smith & Wesson if I could have a local gunsmith remove the screw, or do it myself, without voiding the warranty. They said YES! So, off I went in search of an appropriately small screw extractor. A few harrowing moments later, the screw was successfully removed! Success!!! Rejoicing!!! But... not so fast. This is my brand-new M&P with the new screw sheared off into the slide. Yep. As I began to thread it into the slide, using barely any torque or force at all, it met resistance. I stopped immediately and began to slowly reverse direction. And it snapped. Right where the head of the screw met the slide. I am not sure how I resisted the urge to just throw the whole damned thing through the nearest wall but, somehow, I did. I suppose it was the rapidly shrinking rational portion of my brain that somehow managed to squeak out the thought, "Hey... don't throw it through the wall. If you do that, you can't return it to the factory." Actually, my response was one of complete numbness. Disbelief. It short-circuited my brain. I could only stare at it in silent rage. So, all of this being said, I am very confident that the original screw was cross threaded during initial assembly at Smith & Wesson This is now their problem to fix. I am returning the whole gun to them and suppose that I might see it sometime in March or April. And that thought infuriates me like no other. Would I recommend an M&P to anyone at this point? Not on your life. Check back with me in two months and I'll let you know if my opinion has changed any. History of Updates 1. January 12, 2022 -- Smith & Wesson received the gun for repair. 2. January 18, 2022 -- Smith & Wesson emailed to provide an RMA case number. 3. January 24, 2022 -- Officially one week since the gun was logged into the RMA system. Twelve Days since it arrived at S&W. No news. No updates. 4. February 15, 2022 -- Officially four weeks have elapsed. I called today and checked on things. They hope to be working on it within the next two weeks. 5. February 17, 2022 -- Completely by surprise, S&W sent me a FedEx tracking number today showing that my M&P is coming home. No idea what they've done to it. Stay tuned! 6. February 21, 2022 -- It's back home! They replaced the slide and all seems to be well. They undercut their return-time estimate by a full three weeks.

I have to believe that my friends and I tried that as kids too, but if we didn't... whoa. Missed opportunity!

This is all the ammo I needed to tell my kids how wrong they are!

I couldn't possibly count how many of those little Tootsie Roll sized boxes of caps that I took, pulled a segment off of, and then smashed with a hammer in order to make the loudest bang possible. I swear I can smell the burn of Sulphur just thinking about it. Life in the 80's got slightly more advanced when my friends and I discovered Edison Giocattolli cap guns from Italy. They were more advanced and used plastic strips (for semi-autos) and rings (for revolvers) of caps and came in a variety of more modern styles. I am pretty sure that my first magazine-fed gun was an Edison.

I honestly cannot remember anything earlier than this and have photographic evidence of me carrying not one but two of these, circa 1974. Some photos you can just... smell. And if you know what I mean, you know what I mean. Sweet, sweet Sulphur.

Most days I'm lucky if even one of my kids think I'm still cool.

Which one hit too close to home? For me it was Glock. But I feel like while I am a card-carrying member of the faith, I am prone to visiting other churches.

Nah, it's been all over Reddit, Instagram and FB now.

This line had me wiping tears from my eyes. Good stuff.

This is making the rounds on social media right now, but I realize that not everyone here is a fan of Facebook so you might not have seen it yet. I'm posting it here just to share the joy. Nothing that follows after this paragraph is my content. Everything from this point forward, in this post, is the content of the original author - a guy named Logan Alexander Smith. ---[Begin Copy n' Paste]--- So, people ask me a lot about what guns they should buy for themselves, and I tell them that we should just go together and look…but then we compare schedules and it’s clear that’s never going to work out and now we’re at an impasse. So a little while ago I had this idea. This is a list of gun manufacturers, and the restaurant that I feel corresponds to them and their level of quality, social stigma, etc. And I tell jokes. Enjoy! Smith and Wesson / McDonald's This is the standard against which all national food is gauged. You better be nicer than this if you don’t want to be looked down on. It’s a lot of people’s first experience with eating out. And to be perfectly frank, they have a HIGH standard of quality control that is nearly unparalleled. A McDouble you buy in Tulsa, OK tastes exactly like the one you could eat in Chicago, IL and that one will be indistinguishable from the one you buy in Berlin, Germany. Maybe you can’t stunt on your friends by taking them here, but damnit it does its job well and it does it every time. And it does a wider range of things well than most restaurants could hope to balance. From pancakes, to hamburgers, to fried chicken, salads in a big cup, fish, sometimes they have a McRib, and it’s all pretty good. REALLY good for what you’re paying for it. They never really innovate; they wait and see what other chains are having success doing and then copy them (that Crispy Chicken Sandwich tastes a lot like Chick Fil A don’t it…) but when they add something to their menu it is good to go, and it is guaranteed to be up to their standards. Maybe customer service could use some work. Glock / Chick-fil-A Chick Fil A knows ONE trick. ONE. They have fried chicken cooked in peanut oil. You can eat that as nuggets, or on a bun, or whatever but if you eat at Chick Fil A, you’re getting fried chicken cooked in peanut oil. No restaurant in the history of the Earth has been more reliably delicious than a Chick Fil A. They don’t mess up. And if they do, they will fix it for you so fast and so well that no one will ever know that they did. Downside…they’re a little culty about it. Ok, maybe a lot culty about it. And so are the people who love them. And because of that, there are a lot of people who are culty about hating them. They also are gonna cost more than McDonalds across the board. And, not for nothing, they aren’t really gonna be blowing anybody’s skirt up after they’ve eaten there a few times. “You want a pizza or a hamburger? Well, go somewhere else. We do Fried Chicken cooked in Peanut oil. That’s it.” Ruger / Burger King Burger King is pretty much doing exactly what McDonalds (Smith & Wesson) is doing a little slower and with kind of a quirky style. Customer Service is industry leading too. You can have it your way. Burger King is also, like McDonalds, going to be waiting to see what is popular and then doing their own version, but you’re probably going to find yourself liking it a little better. You’re also going to get a wider range of quality offerings out of Burger King. If you want a Cheeseburger that costs a dollar, they got that. But if you want a cheeseburger that costs $15, they got that too. Probably the only big hiccup Burger King is gonna have behind McDonalds is a little bit less quality control. Maybe your bun is a little doughy, maybe your fries are stale, etc. But hey, just go up to the counter. They’ll fix it for you with a big smile. You’re having it your way. Taurus / Taco Bell Taco Bell is delicious, but when you go you are REALLY rolling the dice. Maybe it’s a wonderful meal at an AMAZING price. Maybe the food makes you sh*t your pants and die. Just, definitely check your Taco Bell before you share it with guests. Sig Sauer / Applebee's This is probably the bottom rung that you can really show off and brag about (unless the person you’re bragging to is in the Chick Fil A cult.) You could take a first date here and they wouldn’t bat an eye. And you can spend Chick Fil A money on your meal if you want, or you can buy a $40 steak and really stunt. The problem is…Applebees isn’t really keeping up the quality control or customer service that they used to. You don’t necessarily want to try a new dish at Applebees the first month it comes out. You wanna wait and see what other people had to say about it when they ate it before you decide if you wanna roll the dice. Odds are Applebees is going to take it off the menu, rework it, and put it back on a few times before they get that really good version you’re gonna be happy with. And, not for nothing, if they food poison you, even if they food poisoned you with that tried and tested $40 steak, they’re probably going to try and say it was somehow your fault unless you have some really ironclad evidence that they cooked it wrong. Beretta / Olive Garden This is event dining. This is reserved for your birthday, or anniversary. You’re gonna pay a little more, but they do have a $10 pizza or soup if you just absolutely can’t handle one of their main entrees. This is definitely a dining experience you can show off and look good for having selected. And it’s always gonna taste GREAT. But man, the portions are big. You’re gonna feel it on your belly after you eat here. You might even kinda wish you’d gotten a lighter meal somewhere else instead, even if it wasn’t as fancy. Also, ITALIA FN Herstal / Red Lobster You can absolutely impress everyone you take with you with your choice of Red Lobster just like you can with Olive Garden. But unlike Olive Garden…I don’t know…just never seems like the food you ordered justifies that bill does it? I paid so much…why is this not better? Why does my waiter seem pissed off that I’m here? Why are they so hostile when I bring up a problem? I didn’t get the order wrong, you did, and this dinner cost a hundred bucks. Don’t tell me you weren’t prepared for how many people came tonight, it’s this packed every time I’m in here. Also, FN and Browning are the same company. Heckler & Koch / Ruth's Chris Steak House This is not a restaurant that dirty “poors” eat at, nor was it intended to be. These are for people who don’t need to be told they were supposed to wear a blazer or a dress to dinner, that’s just what they wear every day. If it was feasible for this restaurant to only sell meals from a balcony looking down on everyone who bought their dinner at McDonalds or Burger King they absolutely would, and if the owners could get away with a Genocide of all the people who ordered Taco Bell they’d do it in a heartbeat. (They, *ahem*, have a history of helping with Genocides.) But is the food good? Dunno. I’ve never eaten here. Can’t afford it. Colt / Cracker Barrel If you ask your grandpa where you should eat, he’s gonna say Cracker Barrel. And if you only consider his life experience, he’s probably right. The kind of food they serve at Cracker Barrel was the best food he’d ever had in his life back when he was in the war. It was the kind of food that made the Depression a little less hard on the South than the rest of the country, and when he thinks about his home…he thinks about Cracker Barrel. Downside, Cracker Barrel knows he feels that way about it. So they’ve gotten WAY too comfortable phoning it in sometimes or leaving you standing out in the lobby FOREVER while you’re trying to eat there. You probably could order and finish 7 consecutive meals from Chick Fil A in the time it takes you just to get your hands on a plate from Cracker Barrel. BUT, honest to god, when all the Cracker Barrel employees do the job like they’re supposed to, if the biscuits and drinks and refills are all where they’re supposed to be, when all the ingredients are good and fresh, If the waitress called you sweetheart and gave you that little pat on your shoulder and now the food is on the table in front of you, if ALL of that went the way it’s supposed to…god…there’s just nothing on earth as good as Cracker Barrel. Remington / Waffle House You know there’s a lot of people who look down on and mock Waffle House…but you’ve never actually met anyone who has ACTUALLY eaten at a Waffle House who has a bad thing to say about them. Everybody you know who eats at Waffle House LOVES the food they got at Waffle House. You know people who would pick Waffle House for their last meal with confidence. And, Y’know, like, a lot of criminals work there. Ok, yeah. But where were YOU planning to get a delicious meal at a sit-down restaurant for this price? That’s what I thought. Mossberg / Logan's Roadhouse The food here costs more than Waffle House, and for some reason it doesn’t have that weird stigma like Waffle House does, but man this whole company is f**king crazy. They’re totally cool with you throwing stuff all in the floor, and the line cook fights the managers and the waitresses like he’s defending some kind of title. Half the utensils you use are going to come in a bucket. Everyone you’ve ever met who worked for them sounds like they were a hairs breadth from blowing they’re brains out and if that waitress talks to you like that one more time you’re gonna go back there and hold her legs while the line cook pummels her and… …damn… …these Roadies are good, man! I’m eating here again tomorrow! Hi-Point Firearms / Little Caesars “It’s hot and ready.” “…but is it, like, good?” “We said it’s HOT and it’s READY.” Springfield Armory / Panera Bread So this one is just as culty as Chick Fil A, but on the TOTAL opposite end of the spectrum. And you’re gonna pay twice as much, and is it just me or is everyone who works for this company legitimately offended that I chose to come here? Also, they’re straight up lying about their food being locally grown and ethically sourced. They’ll bend over backwards to make eating here convenient though. You can get food from here no problem, provided you’re willing to pay more, roll the dice on your order being wrong, and then don’t count on getting any assistance fixing it. Walther / Ruby Tuesday You definitely have friends who say this is their favorite restaurant, but you’ve never actually seen them or anybody else eating here. You definitely haven’t eaten here. Someone must be though, cause you see them every now and again. You should really try it, I’ll bet it’s good. ….eh, nah. Let’s just go to Chick Fil A. Kel-Tec / Chipotle There are three kinds of people in the world: 1. People who have never eaten at Chipotle. Maybe never even heard of it. There’s not a lot of them where they live. 2. People who were almost killed by a meal they got at Chipotle and would sooner eat inside of an active dumpster fire than go eat at a Chipotle again. 3. A guy you know from the office who seemingly only eats at Chipotle and if you send him out to pick up lunch…he’s bringing back Chipotle. CZ / Cheddar's Casual Cafe Ok, look. Cheddars is DELICIOUS. It’s so good. But, c’mon man. Nothing is as good as that guy acts like Cheddars is. Reel it in, man. You’re over selling this. Pretty damn good though. Kimber / IHOP This is a restaurant for people who wanted to eat at Cracker Barrel but for one reason or another ended up at IHOP instead. Maybe they have decided they don’t want the stigma of eating at their Grand Pa’s favorite restaurant, or maybe Cracker Barrel was just packed or closed. Whatever the reason, You’re gonna pay the same price, and you’re not going to enjoy your customer service experience. BUT, there are some neat modern additions they’ve made to their pancakes that you aren’t gonna find at Cracker Barrel, and it is a HUGE plus that IHOP is open 24/7 and you never really have to wait for a table. You can pretty much go get some IHOP any time you want it. Random Imported Guns / Chinese Restaurants And to wrap up, any rando imported guns of any kind are like getting Chinese Take out. It could be the most delicious meal you’ve ever had in your life, a plate passed down using the same artistry that has been taught generation to generation down the ages to you. Or you could sh*t your pants and die. And sometimes the same place can serve you the same dish that was delicious the last time you got it and now it’s rancid. And sometimes it tastes delicious for a while and then turns on you later. Dunno. One way or another, you eat it, you’re gonna find out.

Yet another reason why I only buy and sell on TGO. We aren't perfect, but we know how to take out the trash.

Wow. Refund issued. Totally worth it. What an utter dumb ass.

December 22, 2021 -- Well, another year is rapidly drawing to a close and another is now visible on the horizon. It seems hard to believe that we are here once again, and yet I am sure I say that every year. As I sit here writing this, my house is full of the sound of family enjoying the week of Christmas. My three youngest children are sitting at the kitchen table, decorating cookies with their mom and aunt. Christmas movies are playing on the television across the room just beyond the Christmas tree, but no one is really watching them. They are playing mostly to add their music and sounds to the atmosphere, and in case someone happens to look up so that more scenes of Christmas will fill their view. It is not lost on me that I am beyond fortunate to have this scene playing out in my house tonight. My two oldest kids, separated from this bunch by a legitimate 18-years, are grown and long since moved out. By any account, I should be in the empty nest phase of life, but God saw fit to keep me in the game a bit longer. I am forever in His debt for it. Some of you can undoubtedly relate to the notion of a quieter and calmer home this Christmas. Some of you will be lucky to see brief glimpses of your homes this Christmas in between hours spent away at work. Some of you will be reading this from some location elsewhere on this planet, quite possibly in a place that our government has put you to do a job that you can't even talk about. Wherever Christmas and the New Year find you, I hope that you will find some comfort in this statement: You may be solitary, but you are not alone. We, here at TGO, are with you. And you may be busy serving in some other capacity, but you aren't forgotten. I am thinking of you and I know that others on TGO will be joining me in that. I hope that each of you enjoy Christmas in the best way possible. I hope that you find peace, relaxation, restoration and hope in it. And if you can't... drop me a line and let me know. I am glad to lend a virtual ear to you and it would be my honor to tell you that you really aren't alone. Merry Christmas, folks. Thanks for making TGO the best place on the Internet to talk about everything under the sun. And sometimes about guns. --David

This one sounds awesome!

This is awesome! Congratulations!

What I'm saying is that I am as accurate with a Glock 19 or M&P 2.0 9mm as I was with a VP9 and that my accuracy with any of them is more than adequate for a handgun. I am a pretty competent shooter, at speed. There are undoubtedly handguns that make it easier to shoot well. I suppose the VP9 might be that gun for you and it probably comes down to biomechanics and ergonomics. Those things are, to an appreciable degree, particular to the individual. The M&P gets a lot of shade thrown at it by gun snobs. I've never really understood that. Even the first-generation guns were considerably better than the Glocks of that era in terms of ergonomics and features, and the 2.0 continues to be so. That's just my opinion, but I stand by it on the merit of my experiences and catalog of guns that I've owned and run hard in classes. The accuracy potential of the M&P improved quite a bit with the 2.0 series.

This one really isn't a problem for the average computer user at home to worry about.

That's me, to a T.

Also, didn't MAC throw his against the tree after that? I need to go watch that video again. It's been a long time since I last saw it.

Yep. To be fair to the VP9, that problem can be resolved by installing an aftermarket slide end-plate that does away with the striker indicator hole. Also to be fair to the VP9, the Glock striker can hydrolock too, but it takes a lot more to make it happen. Glock developed the Maritime Spring Cups to mitigate it. I always liked my VP9s but came to the conclusion that they did nothing my Glock 19 or M&P 9 couldn't do just as well for a lot less money. Owning it because you like Heckler & Koch is a fine reason, though. I own a lot of stupid crap that costs more money than capable counterparts, just because I like whatever the thing is.

My reply was in fun, but you seem to have taken it seriously. So, I'll play along. All of those are subjective, even your belief that it is more accurate. I've owned several VP9s. They did nothing that the Glock 19 doesn't do. Both are likely capable of being more accurate than you are capable of being with them. The only thing the VP9 excels at is costing more money and, up until recently, being a 15rd gun in a 17rd form factor.