TGO David

The M&P has had a few revisions and a stronger firing pin introduced, so I'd say that any of those issues you're still seeing currently are from guns that haven't been fitted with the improved parts. Sort of like the Glock 19 G4 or the G23 G3 when it first came out. Teething problems. Smith & Wesson is very aggressive about addressing the few faults with the M&P series when they are made evident and are proven not to just be a fluke. Anything man-made is going to have problems. It's just what the maker(s) do with those problems that determines the Warm Fuzzy Factor that I have for the item in question. Springfield seems to pretty much ignore the issues that I mentioned and flatly refused to send me a sear block claiming it wasn't a user serviceable part. I've had some issues with the M&P family along the line but my 40 has been rock solid every single step of the way, and S&W was quick to fix the others and they never gave me an ounce of problem afterward. Mostly with the compact models, too. Kind of odd, really.

You and Mike went camping?

Key word there is duty grade. Enthusiast grade? Sure. Carry grade? Meh. Duty grade? Nope. My reasons are both personal and practical. Personally I've had two XD's break down on me while being run hard. I've also broken several firing pin indicator roll pins just from shooting the gun. While not a show-stopper, it raised concerns. Further, the funky grip safety makes it very difficult to do certain one-handed (wounded) reloading drills. The grip safety is great marketing propaganda to 1911 enthusiasts but otherwise useless, IMO. I know the Smyrna SWAT guys did/do carry the XD45 so Todd might disagree with my assessment that they aren't exactly duty grade firearms. I just think that there are better weapons with less complexity for people who will absolutely depend on them in the worst possible of circumstances.

Eh... this is going to piss some people off and inspire debate of religious proportions, but I do not consider the Springfield XD to be a true duty-grade sidearm. The Glock, yes. The M&P, yes. XD... not so much. Your personal sensitivities toward such things may vary.

This.

With all of the cartel activity and just blatant unfriendliness towards US border security on the part of the Mexican government, I can't see why ANY American citizen would want to go to Mexico.

Thanks for inviting this lunatic to TGO, Milk.

Radar shows middle TN is covered with precipitation, but I haven't seen a single flake fall here at TGO HQ.

I agree that this is something that our members who have never done more than shoot at a stationary target while standing still really should avail themselves of. I'll see what I can do to live up to some of the things mentioned in the first post about my involvement there. It's just going to depend entirely on my work schedule.

I think I was pretty clear. I don't want CCA plugged on this forum anymore by anyone who works there. JWP did it every chance he got well past the expiration of his ad campaign. If customers want to talk about their experiences there, fine. I've never stopped anyone from talking about a store that they've shopped at so long as it didn't become blatant advertising either by intent or by sheer repetition with the appearance of intent. I just don't want that shopped plugged by anyone on their payroll since they refuse to honor the rules regarding advertising and therefore refuse to respect the other shops who do. Thanks.

Not enough time to do the hats. May have some stickers. Still not 100% on the date; was meaning to get back with you but apparently you've already decided to schedule and announce. I know for a fact that I'm on call the weekend preceding this. Not sure yet about the weekend of the 5th.

If the ban hammer gets dropped it's because of what you continue to do.

Here's a thought... you could stop plugging the shop you work for considering that I've already booted JWP for doing it every chance he could get.

Ok, odd. They claim to have sent me one too but I never saw it. Then again it may have been in one of the envelopes they send every so often that I just throw in the trash. Maybe I should open these things more often.

I've disabled that plugin. It does seem to be faster as a result.

And for the record, there's not a single person on TGO that I wouldn't sit down and have a beer with no matter how much we may have disagreed with something on the forum. It's just that some of you, I'd bust the bottle on the table afterward and stab ya in the face. Just kidding. I bring my Battlemug™ when I'm expecting to have to roll like that.

Oh... well, disregard last post.

No one gets out of here alive!!!

Continuing with those thoughts, let's discuss why penetration is more important than expansion or caliber size. All too often we read comments on gun forums and hear comments in real-life discussions about the perils of "over penetration" in self-defense shootings and ultimately the conversation turns toward the notion that a mythical sweet-spot exists wherein a cartridge provides adequate penetration yet not too much. When you consider the dynamics of a self-defense encounter (the distance at which the shooting may take place, the way that the body of the individual receiving fire may be angled, intermediate barriers between them and the shooter, the anatomy of the individual being shot at, etc.) then it becomes obvious that it is quite literally impossible to load a cartridge that will provide just enough penetration for every single instance. As illustrated in my preceding post, the temporary cavity effects and permanent tissue damaging effects of handgun cartridges make them poor performers when compared to the incapacitation qualities of rifle calibers. While a subject shot with a handgun caliber may indeed bleed out from a minor would given time, a self-defense shooting requires quicker incapacitation of the subject resulting in a more immediate elimination of the threat. Barring mortal injury to the central nervous system (CNS) via the bullets fired, the most effective means of dealing with the threat is to use a cartridge capable of penetrating deep enough into the subject so as to reach the large blood-bearing vessels and organs in the torso. Failing this, rapid physiological incapacity of the threat is unlikely. In comparison, if a bullet completely penetrates and exits the subject, the bullet will have had enough penetration to reach the critical organs and vessels and will more likely have caused hemorrhaging sufficient to induce hypovolemic shock in the subject. Second to CNS trauma, this is the only reliable means of incapacitating the subject. This bears out two points: 1. Shot placement is critical in any self-defense shooting, not only because of the liability attached to each bullet fired, but but also because failing to deliver shots accurately to the areas most likely to incapacitate the subject will result in that subject remaining a threat. 2. Penetration is king when choosing self-defense cartridges. If you have to choose between penetration and expansion, choose the former.

While at first blush I was tempted to place this into the Ammunition and Reloading forum, it seems to me that this is in actuality the better place for it. Often the subject of "stopping power" in a handgun comes up on other forums and in physical conversations. To be blunt, the notion of "stopping power" from a service / self-defense handgun cartridge as it is envisioned by the general public is non-existent and therefore should not be the primary factor when choosing a handgun for self-defense. It is my opinion and that of many others who know far more about the subjects than I do that you should chiefly choose a carry handgun based on how well you shoot it, how likely you are to carry it due to comfort / size / weight of the firearm, and how reliable the firearm will be. Without passing grades in these three areas, a handgun is in my opinion completely unsuitable for carry. You will see from the chart below that when comparing well-designed defensive ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and in temporary cavity effects. This photo was provided by Doug Carr. As you increase the diameter and mass of the bullet from 9mm / 357SIG, to .40SW, to .45ACP, more tissue will be crushed resulting in a larger permanent cavity. Also it should be noted that the larger bullets typical offer improved performance through "intermediate" barriers (clothing, vehicle and building construction, etc.). However it should also be noted that for some people, the benefits of the larger calibers is offset by the fact that a larger caliber typically begets a larger weapon frame which begets decreased ergonomics for the shooter depending on their physique. The photo provided above makes it obvious that NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary wound cavities of sufficient size that it would cause significant permanent tissue damage. Refer to “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” produced by the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.amazon.co...94498334&sr=8-1 So too is the notion of "expansion" or recovered diameter used to support the preference for larger caliber handguns. As seen in the photo above, the bullets recovered from ballistic gelatin show that modern defensive cartridges in the different calibers exhibit similar expansion diameters. Keeping in mind that it is not the size of the hole going in that is as important as the depth of penetration and the amount of bleeding caused within that affects the effectiveness of the bullet, one can see that choosing a handgun solely on the basis of caliber ignores far more important factors. Primarily, you should choose the handgun for carry that: You are most likely to carry rather than leave at home You shoot the most accurately Offers the best reliability Summary: Caliber used as the basis for choosing a defensive handgun is, within reason, bull$#!%. All modern service calibers provided comparable performance and all of them offer generally poor incapacitation ability when compared to rifle calibers. Therefore, choose the gun that you shoot best, that you're most likely to have with you at all times, and that won't fail to operate when you need it the most. Source of much of the data contained within this thread: DocGKR on M4Carbine.net

Wow... this thread smells. Handgun self-defense loads - High Drag Low Speed /done

Simply not true. The Glock 19 has seen a lot of use in Iraq among the contractors. Further it is the most ubiquitous 9mm police sidearm around the globe, at least according to Glock's own marketing propaganda ... which in this case I would tend to believe. As for the finger grooves, those are sadly an answer to a question that only Glock seemed to have heard anyone ask. I understand the reason why they are there, I just do not believe that they were truly necessary.

Yep... I see the love is still flowing back and forth in the thread. I'm going to need some coffee.

True story.

I don't mind disabling it entirely if folks here aren't using it.