JAB

A bit off topic but what the hell, I started the thread... Unless I am mistaken, Thomas Jefferson was out of the country as the representative (Minister) to France during the Constitutional Convention when most of the Constitution was written. He did write a Constitution for the state of Virginia, I think. I've read that James Madison actually wrote much of the Bill of Rights and that much of the 'push' to come up with a Constitution to replace the Articles of Confederation also came from Madison. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong. As far as abortion, I believe that a person's body is his or her own. I have no more right to tell a woman that she has to act as a human incubator to a child to which she doesn't want to give birth than anyone else has to tell me that I can't get a tattoo or eat a Big Mac. When technology can come up with a mechanical incubator into which a zygote, fetus, etc. can be placed at any point along the gestational process then there might be an argument. Until that point, I see no argument that jibes with my idea of Liberty. That said, I could vote for a candidate who disagreed with me on abortion if I agreed with their stance on other issues - including the 2A. In fact, right now I am leaning toward voting for Ramsey for governor.

We did 3, 7 and 15 yards - 12 at each range but only 6 at a time (moved target between each group of 6) plus 12 shots that were 'instructor's choice'. For six of those, he put the target at about 10 yards. For the other six, he basically told us to put the target wherever we wanted. Since I knew by then that I had passed, I ran mine out to 20 yards for those six, just to see what I could do. That was my first time ever shooting at an indoor range - or any formal range, period (indoor or outdoor) and the first time I had ever shot at a human silhouette target of any type. I had shot handguns a decent amount before that but it was all informal, backyard shooting at cola cans and bullseye type targets. I, too, used a .22 pistol to take the class. To me, the three yard shooting, the realization of just how close that is and the fact that many SD shootings take place that 'up close and personal' had more of an impact on me, I think, than any other part of the class (one thing our instructor said was that if you have to shoot someone in SD chances are you are going to get blood on you.) This is a cellphone pic of my actual HCP target: I'm certainly no 'marksman' with a handgun, either (nor with a rifle, truth be told) and was pretty nervous but I think I did okay. You'll be fine.

My mom had about as much to do with teaching me to shoot long guns as did my dad but she hasn't as much experience with handguns. At first, her grip and stance were pretty bad but I worked with her to help her find a more proper stance/grip that she could be comfortable with. To my knowledge, she had never shot at an indoor range before deciding to take the HCP class. My wife's only experience with handguns until recently was pretty much shooting my .22 pistol. Mom took the HCP class a few months back and my wife took it in May. Before each of them took the class, I took them to the range where they would be taking the class and had them practice the shooting portion roughly the way our instructor conducted it. Mostly, this was to help them feel more comfortable and confident. Because she has trouble racking the slide on a semiauto (even my S&W 22A) my wife took the class with a Rossi .357 snubnosed revolver loaded with .38 Specials and passed it pretty handily. Her only knowledge of firearms prior to the class was pretty much what I have taught her (poor thing.) She missed a couple of questions on the written part but passed that pretty easily, too. My mom took the class with her Hi-Point 9mm (she actually shoots it better than my .22) and was, apparently, the best shot in her group - she passed with ease. She was more nervous about the written portion because she says she has never tested well. She missed one question, iirc. Mom now has a Kel Tec P32 for carry and is a pretty impressive shot with the little fellah. You'll be fine. BTW, my mom's HCP took a couple of months to arrive but my wife's arrived in the mail one day short of three weeks after she was fingerprinted, etc.

I think it would depend upon what crops you try to grow. Greens (kale, mustard, etc.) are danged near grass and not that hard to grow - and in East Tennessee, they will produce until late fall or even early winter. Green beans do pretty well with minimal care, too (especially when the seeds are sprouted indoors and the resultant plants put in the ground once they start growing.) Corn isn't hard to grow, either. I've heard of people growing potatoes literally without even planting them - just putting them into piles of leaves (you don't even have to clean the dirt off of them that way.) Heck, my late father had a small sawmill next to where my sister now lives. She has potatoes growing in what was his sawdust pile (he died in '02 so that sawdust is nice and 'composted' by now.) Then there are tomatoes. People grow tomatoes in washtubs on their porch. My grandfather in law raises quite a bit of food in two small, raised beds. He doesn't plow them, till them or even hoe them - he's pretty much just piled dead leaves on them to the point that the resulting 'topsoil' is so loose that he can just push it aside with a small hand spade. Last year, I had a garden spot that I tilled with a hand tiller. It was a lot of work but that was done while also working a regular job, etc. If in survival mode, such things would be my job and there'd be more time to attend to them. Next year, I plan to take a page from my grandfather in law's book and prepare a couple of raised beds. I'll set those up this fall so I can go ahead and begin piling on the dead leaves. I don't think that survival gardening would require a tractor or even a mule. Remember that the Cherokee and other Native Americans did it for years with elbow grease and wooden or stone tools. I don't think survival farming means planting 40 acres, either. You wouldn't necessarily be trying to grow enough to sell, just enough to feed you and yours and store some for the winter. You might have to grow some extra corn, etc. if you have livestock - although I'd probably look mostly to chickens as 'livestock'. Just a few can produce an amazing amount of eggs. Currently, I have only six laying hens and they produce enough eggs that I give two or three dozen to my mom and sister every couple of weeks plus keeping enough for us to use at home. Of course, if those eggs suddenly became a more major part of our diet then I wouldn't have so many extras, but still. My chickens pretty much stay in a coop due to the abundance of critters that like eating chicken but if I had more chickens (i.e. enough to sustain occasional losses to predators) and could let them free range, I wouldn't even have to feed them all that much.

Some might consider the allure of stored food to others who failed to prepare to be a danger and a disadvantage. Others might consider it to be 'bait' and a good way to get fresh meat from an...um...alternate source into their diet. I mean, if things are so bad that you are living off of the SpaghettiO's that you stockpiled in the pantry, it isn't like there will be law enforcement to frown on your enjoying a bit of long pig. Just sayin'.

Heh - I have always thought it was kind of funny that my initials spell 'jab'. Mike, your story made me think of something my wife and I saw a couple of years ago when going to visit my mom. There is a road on the way to my mom's house is on a ridge and is curvy and slopes up. A few years back some folks built a house on the ridge, back off of the road, and their concrete driveway has a very steep angle. Well, it was late afternoon (still kind of early for deer to be moving about but I guess no one told them that) and we came upon a mother deer and her fawn in the road right at the bottom of that driveway. We slowed almost to a stop in case one of them ran in front of us. The mother (obviously hoping to draw attention from her tiny, spindly-legged, spotted fawn) ran down the bluff to our right. The fawn attempted to run up the driveway. I say attempted because it's little hooves could not get good traction on the driveway. It ended up running for all it was worth but running in place - not getting anywhere. After a couple of attempts, it finally caught traction and headed up the driveway. My wife and I still laugh about that from time to time, today.

Maybe I'm overlooking it but I don't see anything that addresses the 'penalty' for carrying past a properly posted sign. I'd like to see the law make the signs meaningless (as they are in other states) and require an establishment's owner/management to actually ask an individual to leave before there can be any legal ramifications but I doubt that would pass. Failing that, a specific size and wording requirement would be nice. Likewise, I don't see anything explaining the legal ramifications of carrying where judicial proceedings are in progress. I think you are on the right track, though.

I get that. My point was that I believe the guy is in a country other than the U.S. - a bit outside the jurisdiction of the BATF. So, in responding to the post about him advertising that he has it on the Internet, I was saying that it doesn't really matter to someone in a country other than the U.S. if the BATF considers it a firearm or not.

Go back and take a look at the Coke can that he shoots. Notice that the shape of it seems a little different than the ones we see in the U.S. Also notice that, while Coca-Cola is written in English in the familiar script on one side, the writing on the other side is not English. Heck, I'm not even sure what lettering system that is. In other words, I'm thinking he isn't in America and, therefore, doesn't have to worry about things being designated as "any other weapon" and the need to purchase tax stamps for them.

What I would like to see TN do is take away any and all legal force behind the signs. I was just reading a post on another forum to which I belong in which a member who is a resident of Missouri was talking about how signage works there. He said that the signs mean nothing in a legal sense. If you are discovered carrying in a business that doesn't want you to carry, they can ask you to leave (which is their right.) If you refuse, only then can they call the cops. First time that happens, you might get a $100 fine. Second time is $200 and permit suspended for one year and third time is $300 and permit suspended for three years. Thing is, he said, that you must be asked to leave first and only refusal to do so can get you into legal trouble. This recognizes a property owner's right to tell you that they don't want you there but completely neuters the signs. That sounds like a good compromise, to me - even though I still probably wouldn't enter if a place were posted as I don't want to give my money to anyone who doesn't want me in their store. Still, being able to have a firearm in my vehicle while at work (I work at a satellite campus of a private college and my employer has a rule against it, so there is a "double-whammy") is the most pressing issue on my mind right now. I'm not even looking to be able to carry at work - I'd just like to be able to have a firearm in the confines of my own property (my vehicle) while I am at work.

+1. I'd hope that some sort of permit would still be available, if desired, in order to maintain reciprocity agreements. Personally, I'd be pretty ticked if, after jumping through the hoops and paying the money to obtain a permit, the law were changed in a manner that would lessen the number of areas [states] where I can legally carry. From a philosophical standpoint, I agree with Vermont style carry. From a practical standpoint, however, I'd rather pay the $50 every four years and still be able to legally carry in many other states.

It hurts me just to see what happens to that poor dog in the video. When I was a little kid - like four or five - someone gave my grandparent's an orphaned fawn. They raised it and it lived at their house for a few years. Once it was grown, the darned thing used to come up behind me and attack me for no reason - standing on its hind legs and pawing me just like that mamma deer did to that dog. I hated that damn thing. When I was in my early teens, someone gave them another. They raised it and it, too, lived in their yard for years. When it was grown, it tried that 'sneaking up behind and pawing' crap on me. Once. I saw it out of the corner of my eye and laid a haymaker upside it's head. Since it was standing on its hind legs, it couldn't do anything to move out of the way. Thing went over on it's back, wallowed around for a few seconds, got up stunned and never tried that crap on me, again.

Not sure how far this way you will be coming, but the IMO the best country ham available today comes from a business housed in a small, cinderblock building on HWY 411 in Madisonville called "Benton's Smoky Mountain Country Hams". The place looks very unassuming and the folks there are just a bunch of country folks but my understanding is that their products get used by chefs all over the country, including the likes of Emeril Lagasse. Clifty Farms (mentioned above) is sold in many grocery stores around here and it is some good stuff but, IMO, it can't touch Benton's. Benton's cure and age the hams - usually for 9-10 months but some are aged longer, with some availaible aged for more than a year. They also have some of the best smoked bacon I have ever tasted as well as some of the best smoked breakfast sausage. In fact, a few years ago the owner learned how to make prosciutto to the standards of the Italian makers. The good news is that if you can't make it to Madisonville, they will ship some of their products (well, the ham and bacon, anyway.) This is their website: https://bentonshams.com/order/index.php And this is an article, with video, that the Knoxville News-Sentinel did on Benton's recently. You'll see the very unassuming building - along with their faded sign - at the first of the video: Videos: Knowsy Knoxville: Benton's Country Hams - Knoxville, TN | Knoxville News Sentinel I probably sound like I work for them or something but I have absolutely no connection with them other than enjoying their products. If you get some of their ham (and it is delicious - especially fried on a biscuit with some red eye gravy), I'd recommend you try the bacon, too. My tastebuds have trouble deciding which is better - the ham or the bacon!

I realize that there are more places in TN than Knoxville. That said, Knoxville and Chattanooga are the two larger cities that are closest to where I live (closer to Knoxville but still go to Chattanooga a good bit.) On the list, I see six listings for Knoxville - and at least three of them indicate that the posting has the verbiage sign or both the verbiage and gunbuster sign, meaning that the change in posting law would have no impact on their posting. Putting up a sign is putting up a sign, IMO - neither takes more 'effort' than the other. As far as the idea that 'they might be more likely to put up the gunbuster sign because the verbiage sign might disturb potential non-carriers', I don't get that thinking, either. To me, if I were going to be afraid of guns being somewhere, the gunbuster sign would be a lot more noticeable (and frightening) than a sign with a bunch of words on it that I probably wouldn't even pay attention to if I weren't carrying. Just from a personal standpoint (no, I'm not saying that things are only important if they impact me, just giving my perspective): Sunspot - I haven't been there in years. Food is not bad but nothing that special, either. Won't be missed. Pelancho's - big deal. As if there isn't a Mexican restaurant on darned near every corner these days. Lemon Grass - I like their food but haven't been there in about a year. Too bad - but there are other options for Asian/Thai in the area. PF Changs - I've never been there. Never understood why I would want to go there when there are plenty of Chinese restaurants in the area that are cheaper and likely (although I can't be sure having never eaten there) better. Aztec Markets - like there isn't a gas station/convenience store every few feet around here. TVA Credit Union - I really do hate this for people who are members. I'm not and have never stepped foot in any of their locations. On the other hand, there are other businesses that still, apparently, want our patronage. Just since the law passed, I have eaten and carried at: O'Charley's at Turkey Creek in Knoxville. No sign. Ye Olde Steakhouse on Chapman Highway (special occasion for a friend's birthday). They serve beer - no sign. Redskin Cafe in Loudon. They serve beer. No sign. La Fortuna Chinese Restaurant (I know - sounds like a Mexican restaurant) in Madisonville. They serve beer. No sign. So that's four places I have been - and legally carried - just since the law passed where I wouldn't have been able to legally carry, before. Further, at least for now, there are a lot more businesses NOT on that list - and a lot more restaurants now open to legal carry that were not open, before - than businesses that ARE on the list. I realize that could still change, in the future, but unless and until it does, I still believe the law was and is a positive move, overall.

Heh, something about "Air Force Pounds MILF...", too.

I've yet to see an expiration date stamped on my ass. I also don't have a digital counter set into my forehead counting down to "my time to go."

I'm still not being clear, I guess. What I am saying relates to your last sentence. I know that the places we can legally use force and the places we can possess weapons (without an HCP) are not the same. What I am saying is that we SHOULD be allowed to possess weapons in our car as in our home regardless of whether or not we are required to have an HCP to possess weapons in public areas and that is a change to the law that I would like to see the legislature make next session. Yes, I realize that we SHOULD be able to carry without a permit in the first place but I just don't see that happening any time soon (and I'd still want to keep my permit, anyway, due to reciprocity with other states.) Having our car considered 'private space', though, I believe is quite possible.

Actually, I don't think that is a Hi-Point, at all. Look at the grips, especially. I think that is a Haskell, the forerunner to Hi-Point.

I guess what I am saying is that the HCP (right or wrong) is supposed to be so that we can legally carry in public spaces. My thought is that inside the cabin of your car is not a public space - it is a private space, just like your living room or bedroom.

This might - MIGHT - be an occasion where I would decide to bring the can of pepper spray that I also often carry into play, especially if the attacker appeared to be unarmed. To me, that would be a lot different than shooting someone on a stranger's behalf. I'd still have to think pretty hard about it, though, if I didn't know the situation. How do I know the guy getting the crap kicked out of him didn't jump the apparent 'attacker' and is simply getting his ass kicked for his troubles? I would imagine that, in some situations, even using pepper spray could end up in an assault charge which, again, would not be in the best interests of me and mine.

That said, remember that the NRA gave Phil Bredesen a strong rating and endorsed his bid for reelection, too. His actions these past two years have proven, to me, that those ratings and endorsements don't always mean much.

That's great! There was a show on the other night (think it was on Animal Planet) and in one part some Orcas were after a seal that had failed to notice them coming and swim to shore before they got to it. All it had for cover was a small chunk of floating ice. Well, being more agile than the Orcas, it kept dodging around and keeping the ice chunk between them and it. It was close for the seal a couple of times but the Orcas finally got tired, gave up and swam away.

While not a beauty queen in anyone's book, I don't think that the Hi-Points are the ugliest ever made, either. For that dubious honor, I'd be more inclined to look at the Chiappa Rhino revolver (and I think that revolvers are better looking, in general, than semiautos): Not that I wouldn't enjoy the chance to shoot one. Might even like to own one, but it's still ugly. Also, the looks of Ruger's LCR are growing on me the more I see them around but I still think that they are pretty darned ugly. Finally, although from what I can gather this one is still in 'pre-production', when/if it actually gets made, I think the Constitution Arms Palm Pistol will run away with the 'ugliest handgun' title. I'm not even sure there is really any competition. Darned thing looks like some kind of pressurized enema device. Of course, I'd bet that the ugliest firearm on the face of the planet would suddenly look gorgeous to someone who had just used to to protect his or her life.

I think the real lesson to be learned here is that despite so many looking to the heavens - and regardless of whether there is a God in those heavens or not - much of what happens here on Earth is as random as a lightning strike.

The reason I was curious about the one in Lenoir City is because of it's proximity to TVA managed land - and possible location on TVA land. I was unsure as to the legality of carrying on TVA managed property. To my knowledge, there is no such or similar concern where the Neyland Drive or either Kingston Pike locations are concerned. Is the Neyland Drive location on TVA managed land? If so, I was unaware of that. Of course, carrying just up the road and across the street on UT campus would not be legal. Now, I am not sure of the legality of carrying in the 'Waterfront Park' area next to Calhouns. I think that is a Knoxville facility and would probably fall under the city ordinance assessing a fine for folks caught carrying in city parks. Honestly, though, I haven't been there since I worked in downtown Knoxville more than ten years ago so I really don't remember the exact layout.