JAB

I have a slip-on Hogue Handall, Jr. on mine, too. I also have a pinky extension - which, in my case, is actually more of a ring finger extension as my pinky still won't fit on the grip - on my carry mag (but not on the spare.) Those two things make a HUGE difference in the ability to grip, control and shoot these little guns. Of course, the Hogue has to be chopped/customized to fit and it is still a little loose. One of these days, if I ever come across one, I am going to pick up one of the Pachmayr grips that is supposed to be made specifically for the LCP/P3AT. I will also say that, having owned both a first gen and second gen P3AT (actually the same gun - Kel Tec built a second gen on my first gen frame under warranty) that the sights on the second gen are much more usable. The same thing that, IMO, makes the second gen not look as good - the flat topped slide - makes it much easier to get a sight picture, for me. As the LCP is a copy of the second gen P3AT, not the first, I would guess that holds true for the Ruger, too.

Oh, I put six rounds into a four inch group from 10 yards with the P3AT in somewhere around ten or twelve seconds. I don't consider that to be rapid fire, really. It was when I was pulling the trigger as quickly as I possibly could that I only put four out of six on target. Maybe I am underestimating the amount of time. I actually shot video with my cellphone but can't get it to upload directly to Photobucket (I upload pics directly from my phone but I guess the video is the wrong format.) When I get the chance, I'll load the vids onto my computer so I can put them into a format that will load onto Photobucket and let you guys judge if I was shooting 'rapid fire' or not. I read an article once in which the writer argued that, contrary to the belief held by many, being able to do well in shooting eight inch circle targets well does have use when practicing with a defensive handgun. IIRC, the writer actually felt that being able to do so might be more useful than simply being able to keep all shots center of mass on a B27 and I tend to agree with the point. After all, if I can't at least keep all my shots in an 8 inch circle from ten yards with no pressure then how the heck could I expect to keep the majority of shots on a larger but probably moving target at, say, five yards when my life is at risk?

Pdheald, I just wet a couple of tablespoons full of auto drip coffee with some hot coffee from the coffee maker (a little more than 'dampened' but not soaked - almost a paste-like consistency.) Rubbed it into the leather (grounds and all) with a paper towel, wiped the grounds off and dried it with a hairdryer. Repeated those steps until I got the look I wanted.

Okay, I'm digging this thread up because I finally got my little P3AT out to see what I could do. Based on my results, I would say that - if the LCP is as comparable to the P3AT as I believe - the claim made by the OP's friend of being able to shoot 5 inch groups rapid fire from 30 feet with an LCP is entirely plausible and even likely if he practices very much. My results that lead me to believe that? I got out at the shooting spot in the yard and, using a tape, measured off 30 feet from the target. The targets I was using were printed off the Internet. I guess I didn't format them just right because the largest, outside circle is not really 8 inches. In fact, measuring shows the circle to be more like 6.5 inches, instead. Now, I haven't been carrying the P3AT nearly as much - in fact, not much at all - since getting a S&W 642 last year. Therefore, I haven't been shooting it very much, either. Until doing this little 'test' yesterday, I hadn't shot it in at least two months and haven't put in any regular practice with it in probably a year or more. That said, I shot it a lot back when I carried it more and so I am pretty familiar with the gun. At 30 feet (ten yards), using only the front sight and what I would consider rapid fire - the first time I have even shot the thing in a couple of months - I was able to put four of the six shots in a four inch group. If one is considering three shots to be a group then I succeeded. I choked on the last two shots but this was shooting cold with a gun I hadn't shot in months and without 'warming up' with another gun first. I'm also not all that great a shot. I figure that someone who is practicing regularly with it - especially if they are a better shot than me (which wouldn't be hard to achieve) then that person should be able to rapid fire all six into at least a five inch group. Just for the heck of it, after putting a couple more mags through the gun to warm up a little, I decided to try shooting it a little more slowly and actually use the sights. Doing that, I was able to put all six into a four inch group from 30 feet. In other words, despite the myth that these little guns are only good out to arm's length, they have plenty of potential accuracy. As in my case, the accuracy failure lies not with the gun but the portion of the shooting system standing behind it.

Not having been there, it sounds like simply 'exposing' his firearm - without drawing it, certainly without brandishing it - quite possibly prevented him from A. having a confrontation with someone who had criminal intent and B. possibly having to go the next step and shoot someone all while doing no harm, not causing any kind or public uproar or anything else. I can only say that I HOPE I would have handled the situation that well. I'm with you on that. I don't think the situation comprises an argument for open (or concealed) carry so much as it simply comprises an argument for carry, period. I will say that, personally, I don't believe that true 'open carry' is the best in most public situations (just my opinion) but situations such as the OP described are why I like carrying in a manner that I consider 'casually concealed' - OWB with a cover garment. That way, my firearm remains concealed yet easy to access or display (without brandishing) if I feel the need. I'm not saying that is the 'best' way, just part of the reason I like it (although in the interest of full disclosure, I do pocket carry sometimes.)

At least there is an option for a Circuit Judge that works more like a regular revolver. I love lever guns. In fact, that is probably my favorite rifle action, although I only own two. Part of what I like about them is the feel - just a good, solid rifle feel. I don't have much experience with telescoping/adjusting buttstocks but, on the few guns so equipped which I have shot, I did not like them - I find them awkward and uncomfortable. As for a 'tactical' lever gun, I will here quote myself from a discussion about this rifle on another gun board:

I have a 22A that I have had for several years, now. I originally bought it because it was a little cheaper than a Ruger. I recently entertained the notion of trading it for a MKIII because I like the 'Luger-ish' look of the Ruger. As part of making the decision, I borrowed a MKII to shoot side by side with the 22A. In the end, I found that my 22A feels just as good in my hand, shoots just as well and is just as accurate. I decided that I would not trade my 22A for a Ruger. I might still just buy a Ruger one of these days if I find a good deal on a used one but the 22A stays. The 22A had feeding problems at first. I ended up taking a piece of very fine sandpaper to the feedramp. I polished the ramp up nice and have had no problems with feeding, since. The only 'major' problem I have had was ammo related. I had a case rupture while shooting Aguila Supermaximum ammo (about the third shot of the first mag of that stuff I ever put through it.) The result was that my extractor assembly was blown out of the slide. I ordered another, replaced it and won't be buying any more Aguila Supermaximum (I shot most of the rest of that box through a revolver and found the empties very hard to extract.) My 22A does just as well with Winchester or Federal bulk (and just as poorly with Remington bulk) as any other .22 semiauto I have fired. All of my .22s seem to prefer Federal.

And there is our difference of opinion. I DO care if they search my car. No, there is nothing in there that is illegal but I have no more desire to allow an employer to search my car than I do to have them come to my house and do a room to room search. That is why I believe there should be legal protections against employment being conditional to agreeing to 'voluntary' searches. An employer could hang a sign at the entrance to their parking lot stating that by entering the lot you agree to be anally violated at the property owner's discretion but that doesn't make the sign valid. If a search is conducted, a firearm is found and the employer wants to get rid of the 'gun toting' employee then, TN being an at will state, they could still terminate the employee regardless of specific protections for legal firearms. If, however, the search were prohibited in the first place then the employer would never know about the firearm and would have no reason (well, at least no firearm related reason) to want to fire the employee. Sure, if an employer just wanted rid of an employee, anyway, the employer could simply fire the employee but I still think the best legislation would prohibit the search in the first place.

Exactly (I know you were exaggerating but it does make a point.) So what we need are private property protections that prohibit employers from making employment conditional on an employee 'voluntarily' allowing a search of the employee's private property. The legislation does not have to be firearm specific - it could simply state that it is a violation of the law for any employer to require employees to 'voluntarily' allow vehicle searches as a condition of employment, render null and void any such 'agreements' that employees have previously been required to sign and establish penalties for employers who terminate employees based on a search refusal. There probably should also be some provision stating that the employee, not the employer, is responsible for the contents of the vehicle.

Interesting article but it brings to mind an article I read in a knife-related publication way back in my youth (sometime in the early '80s - when the Rambo movies had made 'survival knives' all the rage.) That older article presented a very different point of view. In that article, the author made a good argument for the idea that a long, fixed blade knife would not be at hand if one were to find oneself in a true, sudden and unexpected 'survival' situation. The idea was that they are impractical - and possibly illegal - to carry in most situations. After all, the excrement is just as likely (maybe more likely) to strike the rotating air moving device while a person is at his or her desk at work or in some other situation where a medium or large fixed blade knife would be out of place. Even carrying such a knife in one's vehicle could result in potential legal trouble for us in Tennessee even for those of us who have a permit to carry a firearm on our person (makes absolutely no sense, to me) unless we can prove that we are currently engaged in some activity such as camping, hunting, etc. Therefore, the jist of that old article was that one is much better off choosing their everyday carry pocket knife with an eye toward its potential use as a 'survival knife' rather than counting on the idea that they will have a 'survival knife' at hand when needed. IIRC, a quality Swiss Army style knife was mentioned as a good option. The article was written before the The Leatherman and other, similar pocket tools became ubiquitous but I would think they would fit the criteria, as well. Of course if one is knowingly going into the woods, going fishing, camping or even just kind of hanging out in a rural area a fixed blade belt knife makes sense. Such a knife would also certainly outperform most any pocket knife for tasks such as the 'batoning' the above-linked article mentions. That said, for folks whose lives don't allow them to spend the majority of their time on their own property, in the woods, etc. or folks who spend more time on sidewalks than on wooded footpaths, a folding pocket knife is a lot more likely to be available when needed. On a more personal note, I never got that Buckmaster knife I used to want. The cost (around $100 at the time, iirc) was prohibitive. I just looked on ebay and the ones on there were priced at $250 or so. I also read/heard in more than one place that the steel was a bit brittle and the points of the blades were apt to break off. Like the author of the article in the OP, however, I did have a 'Rambo' knife - a cheap, flea market knock-off made in Pakistan. I was enamored with the 'survival' kit stored in the hollow handle and ended up painting the blade black (we're talking black paint and a brush - not even spray paint - hey, I was just a stupid kid.) I even managed to get a fairly good edge on it. I think I still have the thing in a box, somewhere - and it still has that hideous, half-botched paint job.

Looks nice and I wouldn't mind owning one if I won the lottery but it would still be waaay down on the 'want' list. In my mind, a .357 revolver is already nearly the perfect 'all around' handgun (not that I don't like/want/have other wheelguns and semiautos.) For me, taking a cartridge that is almost 'perfect' in a wheel gun and stuffing it in a bottom feeder isn't really an improvement. Hey, though, different strokes and all that.

More to the point, why should their property rights negate ours? My vehicle is my property. The things inside my vehicle are my property and, as long as those things remain inside my vehicle while parked on their property then what is inside my vehicle is my business. It doesn't matter where my vehicle is parked, it and its contents remain my property - so how about a little protection for property rights here? That is the tact I believe would work better - and be more valid - than a bill specifically protecting firearms in a vehicle.

IMO, the problem is that we don't need a firearms specific 'parking lot' bill. What we need is a law declaring that the interior of a person's vehicle has the same 'private property' protections as that person's home, regardless of where the vehicle is parked - meaning that it is no one's business and no one can legally tell a person what legal items he or she can or can't have inside his or her vehicle.

Fingers outran brain. I carry the P95 with the hammer down and one in the chamber with the safety off.

I don't like Glocks - yeah, I know, they are good guns I just don't like them. Therefore, presented with a choice of a Glock vs. X, I'll take X. On the other hand, lever action is my favorite rifle action - they are just so much fun to shoot. I'd go with the lever gun (in fact, a lever gun in .357 is right near the top of my want list right now.)

I have to agree with OS here. I like to do most of my firearms buying at Farnsworth in Vonore. That said, if I were looking for something like a Pardner or (another) Maverick pump shotgun, a Marlin Model 60 or something like that, I'd definitely have to consider buying at Walmart. It isn't like there is much I need a salesperson to tell me about such a basic gun, WM nearly always seems to have them in stock and their prices on such 'bargain' gun lines are usually second to none. Further, more along the lines of OS's comment, Walmart's interest in firearms may be purely motivated by profit but as long as there is profit in selling them, Walmart will remain interested. Along those lines, they would likely oppose legislation that would cut into that segment of their profits. As such, even if their motives aren't the same as ours, the largest retailer in the United States is surely not a bad ally to have. Sportsman's Warehouse was mentioned in an earlier post. I live in Loudon but have gone to SW for a few things in the past, couple of years. When I went looking for a Marlin 925M early last year I couldn't find one. I went to my LGS first (on Saturday) and would have ordered one from there - and would have gotten a pretty good deal - but he was showing only one as being available for him to order and was doubtful that one actually existed. I had seen them at several area Walmart locations but, lo and behold, when I got ready to buy one (my income tax return came back) I called all of them from Clinton to Cleveland - including all of the Knoxville locations - and every, single one of them was sold out, as well. So was Bass Pro. I even got desperate enough to call Gouger Mountain and they were out of stock on them, too. I had been down to Sportsman's Warehouse a couple of times and ended up calling them. Not only did they have one in stock, they had three - one in each of three different models. I made the drive down, bought the Marlin and got to shoot it that day (a Sunday, no less.) I have also found Buffalo Bore ammo (I was looking for 180 grain .357, only needed one box and didn't want to order online) in stock at SW. I recently went back there to get the stuff I need to start reloading - they had everything I wanted right there, in stock and on the shelves. My lesson from all of this was, while I prefer buying from my LGS, the big box stores definitely have their place. I see no reason why we can't support both.

I always like to see new things coming out in the firearms realm. It means the field isn't stagnating or entirely resting on existing guns. That said: This thing looks to be bigger or at least 'bulkier' overall than my P3AT. Personally, I'd rather have 6+1 .380 rounds than two .45 rounds - and reloading another six (or nine with the extended mag) into the P3AT would be quicker than reloading two into the Heizer. Still, as I said, I am glad there are new products hitting the market, even if they aren't for me.

I have no experience with the other two guns but I do own a Ruger P95. In fact, I liked the first one so well (don't like carrying it because it was a gift) that I bought a second one to carry. I do not carry IWB as I hate that carry method - even my NAA mini is uncomfortable for me to try and IWB carry. I do sometimes carry the P95 OWB in a leather belt slide holster and it hides pretty easily under just an untucked shirt as a cover garment. My older one is a decocker-only model (I don't think they make those anymore) while the newer one has a decocker safety. I like DA/SA and carry with the hammer down on an empty chamber with the safety off. Yes, they are a little heavy but not unreasonably so and the weight makes firing 9mm a breeze, even +P. I'm still largely a revolver guy at heart but if I had to choose a semiauto as my one and only handgun it would be a Ruger P95, hands down.

Although it might involve the Playboy mansion.

Did you guys never see the experiment in middle school where someone puts a piece of raw beef into a jar containing Coca Cola? The cola will eventually begin to break down the meat. Heck, some people use Coke in marinades or basting liquids for meat because it will help make the meat tender - which really just means it is breaking down some of the fibers in the meat. I don't see, then, why Dew wouldn't have a similar effect on a mouse which is, after all, just meat. I'm not sure about the effect on the bones, though. I've heard some folks talk about how, if a Coke can dissolve a piece of meat, it really must be hard on our stomachs, intestines, etc. In response, I generally simply point out that our stomachs already contain hydrochloric acid which is much more effective in breaking down the meat than a Coca Cola. As someone who takes regular medication to prevent acid reflux, believe me when I say I can attest first hand to the fact that the acid in our stomachs is a lot stronger than a Cola. In fact, helping to break down the things we eat - including meat - is kind of the purpose of the acid in our stomachs. I figure if our systems can stand up to that acid then a Coke (or Mountain Dew) isn't going to make much difference.

I don't have an LCP but I do have a P3AT. Now you have me wondering how well (or badly) I could do. I'll have to try it out with the P3AT this weekend. I'm not a runner so carrying while running is not something in which I can share experiences. That said, I have had a P3AT for years (was bought as a first gen NIB if that tells you how long I have had it - although it has since been sent back to Kel Tec under warranty and they built it into a 2nd gen on my old frame.) Last year I bought a S&W 642 which is about the same size as the LCR. Being a bit more of a 'revolver' guy, I love the 642 and having it has greatly limited the carry time my P3AT now sees. That said, I still wouldn't get rid of the P3AT as it still outshines the 642 in some aspects. The weight difference is of no real consequence to me but the size difference is. The P3AT is a good bit thinner than the wheelgun. This means that, for me - even though a small .38 is kind of the archetype for ankle guns - the P3AT works much better for the rare occasions that I need to ankle carry. I can't stand IWB carry - even with the P3AT - but in some circumstances I will use a belly band worn low so that the grips are positioned just above my waistband. Again because of the thinness, the P3AT works really well for that - much better than the 642. Heck, just last night I decided to carry my P3AT OWB in a FOBUS I have for it and, because of the thinness and overall size, it completely disappeared under just an untucked Polo type shirt without even having to wear an undershirt to keep it from rubbing my side. Finally, if I am going to pocket carry, some of my pants have pockets that are shallow enough to allow the rear of the 642 grip to just barely peek out. You'd think that would make for an easier pocket draw but I find it to be just the opposite - not to mention the only reason I would pocket carry anyway would be for deep concealment and having the grips peeking out kind of defeats that purpose. In those same pockets, however, the P3AT will disappear completely - with the added bonus that the homemade leather holster I made for it also carries a spare mag. I am typing all of this to say that there are likely other factors you wouldn't even notice until you started actually carrying the LCR that might make you regret getting rid of the P3AT. I hope my .02 helps.

As I have said in other threads, whatever their reasoning - even if I never buy a firearm from Walmart - I think that any time firearms get increased visibility in an every day, non-running-in-panic manner in our society it is a good thing. As for shopping at Walmart, etc. I do tend to prefer buying firearms at my LGS. The guys there are more knowledgeable, the prices are within the realm of Walmart prices (and the store owner, who is usually one of the guys behind the counter, has the authority to give me a better deal and will do so, sometimes.) I also know that I will get much better support after the sale. That plus the fact that the LGS has layaway if I need it and I just like dealing with them pretty much means I tend to go there for most of my firearms purchases. Ammo, however, is a different story. Walmart is the least expensive place I have found for buying the majority of my plinking/range/practice ammo for the more common calibers and so I buy there. See, I am a person of (quite) limited means so my wallet has a very big say in where and how I spend my limited gun/ammo funds. For ammo that Wally doesn't carry - either in a less common caliber or a particular brand of SD or hunting ammo, I'll still go to the LGS (except for 9mm Makarov which I tend to buy at Academy because their price on the Monarch Makarov stuff is great.) There is also something to be said for being able to buy things (not necessarily gun-related things) on my schedule, when it is convenient for me and fits in around my work scedule, etc. rather than having to try and get to one of the local mom and pops on their schedule which is often (although not always) M-F between the hours of 9am and 5pm. For me, the idea of supporting the local mom and pop stores is great but does spending more for the same (or comparable) items in their store put any more money in my pocket? Nope. In fact, it means less money in my pocket. So, with the exception of a few items where either the locals give prices comparable to Walmart, the locals have a better selection than Walmart or access to the locals' knowledge makes paying a little more worth it, I'll shop at Walmart with my head held high. Maybe not guns but dog food, light bulbs, printer paper and other such things I have no problem buying (for less $$$) at Walmart. Then, again, what do I know - I like Big Lots and sometimes go to Save A Lot for groceries.

Modern Firearms - IzMech MP-412

I think it is because the P3AT and LCP are so thin and light (a blessing and a curse sort of thing.) I threw a Handall, Jr. on mine and honestly don't feel much recoil from it. That said, the recoil is significant enough that I can't shoot it weak-handed with much accuracy. It isn't that it hurts my hand or that I limp-wrist when I shoot it left-handed. Instead, it is simply that the thin grips tend to 'twist' in my hand no matter how tightly I try to hold it when shooting weak-hand only (I do just fine with it shooting one handed with my strong hand.) That plays havoc with my aim. Honestly, the little fellahs might be downright unbearable if they were straight blowback guns. I also have an FEG SMC-380. It is basically a PPK (or maybe a PPKS) clone. It is slightly larger and a bit thicker than the P3AT but, being all metal, is much heavier. It is very accurate (I am finding that, when it comes to semiautos, the Walther style seems to be the most 'natural' for me - I also do well with my CZ 82) but, being a blowback gun, I'd put the felt recoil - at least for me - just about on the level with the P3AT.

Just had to point out that the P3AT (as well as the Little Copied Pistol and, I assume, the TCP) are locked breech guns, not blowback designs. That is one of the things that was so innovative about Kel Tec's P3AT - and I believe one of the things that got Ruger so much praise for 'innovation' when they copied what Kel Tec had already been doing for years at that point. The P3AT was based on Kel Tec's own P32. Also, the reason people were concerned about 'smileys' didn't have all that much to do with accuracy. More often, the concerns were related to two other issues: 1. That the bullet might be 'set back' enough to cause a dangerous increase in pressure and 2. That the damage to the nose of JHPs could hinder expansion I say 'were' because smileys were mostly an issue with the first generation P3AT. At some point, a P3AT owner came up with a mod that was called the 'rampectomy' in which part of the feed ramp was removed in order to lessen/prevent smileys. When the second generation P3AT came out, Kel Tec had incorporated a ramp redesign from the factory. My first gen gave smileys like mad. I've never seen a smiley out of my second gen.