ReeferMac

Folks over at Lucky gunner must have found a Ballistics Gel Blue-Light Special!   http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/   Just about every size and brand of handgun ammo out there.   - Kevin

  LOL! I DID try that, guy said he wasn't giving his secret to no YANKEE!!! :lol: (the rib's were delicious, tho!)   I'll see if I can find Academy Musicman. Thanks JD, I've seen a few of the egg's up north, but my buddy's smoker is about 50 cu. feet, I'm not buying bags for that beast! LOL!   - K  

Thanks 10 Ring! I've seen the bagged chips of it, was hoping to grab just some regular wood. My buddy's got a pretty big smoker he takes to competitions and does some catering with. He picks out his own wood for cooking, but you just can't get the good stuff like you have down here w/o knowing someone... Found a place in Knox advertising Hickory, Pecan, and Cherry!   - K

  Hey Comms! WAAAAAAAYYYY past the Tappan Zee...:lol: Originaly from the Buffalo Area, did 4-years in SUNY Oswego, and spent the next 15 outside Rochester. Finally got tired of it. Wingnuts in Albany convinced me it was time to head for the good life. We moved to Kingston this summer.   - K

Thanks guys, I'll check the paper to see if I can find any. Thank you Mr. Duke! We've got to head back up there for a weekend soon to winterize the house (Damned thing still hasn't sold!)   - K

What is that delicious smelling wood used on all the smokers and BBQ places you see around here? I'm a transplant from NY, and I've almost caused a few accidents driving by. The smoke is just devine! Would love to bring a few chunks of it back to a friend of mine who smoked quite a bit on the side. What is it and where can I get a bunch of it? Thanks.   - Kevin  

Interesting, I did not know that, thanks for clarifying, guys. It's odd that Cheaper-than-dirt lumps them into the same category?   So, while I may be able to insert the cartridge into the chamber and pull the trigger, it may malfunction and possibly damage the rifle and rifle operator. (Or is there a chance it will go bang and just give sub-standard performance since we're talking bolt-action cycle)?   Since a 308 rifle is designed for greater pressure, I'm guessing it will be able to handle the NATO round w/o damaging the gun, just the bullet may not perform as desired?   - K  

  Thanks Omega, that issue was one reason I initially chose the 308, same as 7.62 NATO. Thanks robtattoo, I did like the way the Remington felt, but want to look into the Savage more? The comments about it's versatility, and being able to swap parts at home really has some appeal to me.   - K

LOL! Allright, lets get "Dad's Saturday Morning Boom Stick" first, and then you guys can talk me into an AR for messing around with!

  Appreciate the info Dave, but unless things go seriously wrong, 99% of the lead through that barrel will be spent at the range beyond 200 yards by me on a Saturday morning w/ a cup of coffee. The added concerns are because I don't want to have a large gun collection, I want to add one rifle that will handle many situations, that included. I've played around w/ the AR-style, and that's just not what I'm looking for. The focus, breathing, concentration, and reward, of individual long-range rifle shooting has always been attractive to me from a sport/relaxation standpoint. It just screams a Bolt-action setup to me. The Semi-Auto's are nice, but that's not it for me. My concern is akin to the comment Dolomite made about the savage. I'd hate to get to the range and find out "Brand X lets you..." It's one reason I got the Mossberg Shotgun: $150 and the twist of a bolt gets me a rifled barrel shotgun in addition to my smooth bore.   Ditto gregintenn, you've noticed I keep coming back to one of those numbers you somehow manage to ALWAYS see on the shelf. Used to be like that for .22's... never thought I'd see it happen, but here we are!   Thanks again for all the great info and discussion guys! Helping me learn a lot.   - K  

  Thanks Dave, will take a look at those video's w/ my next cup of coffee! :popcorn:   So the 700 doesn't even have a 'clip' in the way I'm thinking of it (I'd call that an internal magazine?) You have to load the bullets through the breach/action? What do you do after a few rounds, doesn't the metal get hot? I have to say, and I'll freely admit I'm 100% ignorant... but that seems like a PIA way to load a rifle?   The Ruger had a little plastic box that popped off the bottom (quickly replace w/ a spare and get back to shooting!). That seemed like a much better way to do it to me? I get that a bolt-action isn't a rapid-fire rifle, but all the same, it just seems cumbersome (especially given that there's a port/slot already on the bottom of the gun? Why wouldn't you load it that way?)   Know what you mean about the scope... Trying to avoid dragging that into the discussion right now, I'm confused enough!  :rofl: Frankly I figure I'll select a rifle w/ a fair scope pre-mounted to save me some headaches... and as my skill improves, perhaps I can justify upgrading the glass (or maybe the whole rifle?)   I don't know what the Remington had (but it worked well in the store...), the Ruger was the Redfield model w/ factory scope (bore sighted):   http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRedfield/models.html   Thanks again for the video's and info!   - K  

Thanks Dave, that kinda helps.   So if I get a "long action", it's chamber, bolt, etc., are all configured for longer cartridges...   While I realize it may not cycle perfectly, or require manually inserting the cartridge into the breach (vs. using the clip), assuming the rim diameter is the same, I can shoot long OR short style cartridges for that calibre from a long-action rifle?   I _do_ think I've settled on the larger cartridge (e.g. .308 vs. .243, etc.), as I believe the .22's will handle the smaller-targets fine, this rifle is really centered around being able to reach out and touch something w/ a big stick. I also _think_ I'm shying away from the 300 WinMag, as it's expensive and a lot of boom... and I'm not using it to put food on the table (yet).   I'm looking at the chart you helpfully posted on this Remington link:   https://support.remington.com/General_Information/Which_calibers_are_long_action_and_which_are_short_action%3F   And it got me to thinking... most of the rounds I've been kicking around, have been short action. I see the 30-06 is the only "long" action round I'm considering (while I recognize the qualities of some of the other's one mentioned, I'm really trying to focus on cheap, readily available ammunition and parts here in the US, and don't want to get into anything the least bit exotic...) However there have been so many posts mentioning all the different numbers and sizes out there I'm quite confused!   If I got a 30-06 rifle (long action) could it shoot .308 rounds (short action)? What about 300 Blackouts?   What's the advantage to long vs. short? Aside from rifle weight (is there something inherently "better" about the Long Action rounds, e.g. they (are capable of) holding more powder/bigger charge? Larger/longer/heavier bullets in the Long Action vs. Short Action, that sorta thing)   Would a Magnum Short-action be equiv. to a standard long-action? I guess I'm trying to decide if there is an advantage for me to select one over the other, or does one give me more flexibility (aka - Long's will load a short round, but not the other way)     GAWD, it gets dizzying very quickly!   If they're "All 30-Calibre", that references the width/diameter of the bullet, correct? The Brass cartridge behind it could be larger diameter (producing the "Necked Down" Style I keep hearing kicked around?) Obviously you wouldn't/couldn't load a necked-down cartridge if the chamber is too small (won't fit!), nor would you slap a tiny cartridge in a bigger chamber (the thing rattling around loose inside when it goes BOOM wouldn't turn out well, even I understand that, LOL!)   The Length of the bullet is independent of the diameter (but matters whether it will go down the barrel or not, the action will cycle properly, etc.) However is it physically possible (w/o blowing yourself or the gun up!) to put a short-round into a long-action rifle? If I could shoot both long and short rounds out of a long-action rifle, that would give one more flexibility in ammunition that can be used....   In case it's not apparent yet, one of my goals w/ this rifle is to be able to use it should things in this country turn south (no, not making a yankee-joke!) I'm worried that some day the HNIC@1600 may make it so all this stuff is not readily and easily available (though one reason I relocated to TN was I figured this would be one of the last states to comply with any of those demands...). Should that day come, what platform can I acquire that will give me the best results and most flexibility to handle as many possible situations? I don't want a large gun collection, just a few pieces, so need to be selective. I have the Shotgun already, am acquiring pistols for the wife and I now, and will get a couple .22's for my Boys. The only piece missing is a big-boom-stick to hit something at the other end of my property... Maybe I won't be able to find 308's but someone's offering to trade a box of 30-06... can I get a gun that shoots both (w/o having to buy all the extra barrels and such Supafly mentioned w/ the Savage... though I admit, that may be the solution to my problem - one gun that has many barrels).     Thanks again for all the info and discussion. I think I'm more confused than ever but I will say I'm closer to selecting a rifle! :lol:   - K  

 a short action and if the model number has three digits it is a long action.   GREAT, now I've got another variable to worry about! :rofl: LOL! Aside from cartridges available, is there a great difference between the two (I mean, obviously the performance of X-style cartridge will differ from Y-style... but beyond that?) Just how long the movement of the bolt travels, right? Is it possible to put a short-action round into a long-action rifle? Assuming you can't stuff a long into a short. Thanks again!   - K  

  LOL! I'm not familiar w/ the Savage line. Supafly brings up some good points, but is waaaay beyond my level at this stage. I appreciate the info about the mod's and aftermarket, but I think I'll stick w/ the out-of-the-box config, at least for the get-go?   I was reading the spec's on Cheaper-than-Dirt, and noticed there are some differences that seem significant, unfortunately I'm going to raise my hand and plead "ROOKIE" again!   Remington: $751 Remington model 700 SPS Special Purpose bolt-action rifle .308 Winchester 24" carbon steel barrel 4 Round hinged floorplate magazine Single-stage trigger 2-position safety Black synthetic stock Matte blued finish 1:10" twist 13.38" length of pull 1.13" drop at comb 1.38" drop at heel R3 recoil pad Hinged floor plate magazine Swivel studs Drilled and tapped 43.63" overall length 13.38" Length of pull 7.25 lbs   - I didn't like the 'clip' one bit on the Remington, had to load the bullets through the chamber? Guy at the store didn't know how to take the clip out.   Savage: $424 Savage Axis XP bolt-action rifle .308 Winchester caliber 22" free floating barrel with Sporter taper 1:10" twist 4-round detachable box magazine Two positions safety Matte black synthetic stock Stainless steel barrel Dual pillar bedding Drilled and tapped for scope mounts Includes 3-9x40mm scope, mounted and bore sighted 43.875" overall length Weighs 6.5 pounds     I've seen this repeatedly on reviews for quality guns: "Pillar bedding" and also "Free Floating", and I'm simply not knowledgeable enough to know - however they seem to  be desirable features. They did have several Savage models on the floor at the store, I'll have to go back there and check them out! Hopefully the guy at the store knows how to work the magazines!   Thanks!   - K  

Well, good news bad news from the trip to Frontier Firearms today for my permit class.... They had the Rem700 and Ruger American both w/ very nice scopes hanging on the wall for me to look at in between sessions! :)   Loved the Remington's bolt, but the price ($700+) and the safety weren't to my liking at all? Loved the trigger and the scope on the Ruger (not to mention it was $200 cheaper!), but the bolt action felt like it had a broken hip or something? WTF is up w/ that extra 'hitch' you've gotta do to cycle it? I didn't get to shoot either one (I dunno if rifles qualify for their try-before-you-buy?), but I will say if I money was no object and I had to pick, I'd take the Remington? The Ruger was nice, and I could probably get used to the extra twist in the bolt action, but the Remington rifle felt more natural in my hands. I'd rather get used to that safety than the bolt.   Interestingly the one guy was talking w/ another customer  about the 300 blackout... he was saying the round was designed to be shot through a shorter barrel auto-rifle w/ suppressor. It was initially designed by special forces to give them the hit of a larger bullet w/o the BANG of the bigger rounds, and specifically at shorter ranges. Highly recommend standard rifle calibre's if going passed 150 yds. Shrug, I'm a newbie so I'll let those more knowledgeable than me chew on that one?   Thanks again for the discussion!   - K  

  Thanks cj0e, that's good advice. I've got to admit I'm seriously considering the 243. I also plan on getting a .22 (my oldest can't wait!), probably a couple, in part to practice as well as handle the smaller nuisances that come around. That's one reason I'm leaning towards the larger calibre, the small-end will be covered (and we go for our handgun permit class tomorrow!) But something like the 308 deliver twice the whack when it gets there. :stick:   - K  

semi autos, AR esp, tame recoil a lot more.  A good muzzle brake can cut the recoil by a very large amount, though these are more common on AR type guns you can certainly have someone ugly up a bolt gun with one.   A good recoil pad does a lot too... my beloved mauser just has a metal plate... ow.   Thanks again Jonnin, I actually found the various muzzle brakes on the AR's I tried to be too distracting. I doubt I'll ugly up a classic bolt-action rifle. That'd just look weird? :lol:   - K  

Thanks Guys! I've been able to put 30-40 rds. off my 20 ga. w/o any problems, Pete. However I appreciate the heads-up, it is something I keep in the back of my mind as I get older. Good advice Dave, I put about 50-60 rds through the AR's, and that was enough to convince me.   - K  

Thanks Jonnin, my old boss back in NY had just gotten a 243 before I moved here and he was smitten. Light as a feather to shoot, and w/ the right load, sucker's moving faster at 200 yds than some larger rounds are out of the muzzle. I see the appeal. Still, I keep coming back to the idea of an affordable, common, easily sourced round. I don't want anything exotic or hard to find. Once I get more familiar and experienced, I can experiment with custom loads, and really get it dialed in. That being said, 2nd most important quality, I think is the smack it delivers when it lands, and that keeps brining back the bigger rounds. Assuming the operator will be able to improve on his errors ( :wave: ), that makes cheap a #3. I think I'd like to try a 308 and a 300 WinMag side-by-side. W/ reloading I should be able to bring the per-click charge down to where it's reasonable to go to the range, and certainly don't want to be sitting there in the field one day watching my target run away while I wished I wasn't so damned cheap!   - K  

Ain't that the truth?! Thanks! I'm sorry to hear the recoil was an issue. Separated my Right Shoulder as well, so far it hasn't proven a problem w/ shooting.   Playing around w/ the ballistics charts on gundata.org, I see why the 300WinMag is popular, sucker's cooking coming out of the barrel. The 30-06 and .308 compare favorably,  but both are below the WinMag. The 270 Magnum charts favorably, but I've encountered Magnum shells trap-shooting, and I don't know if that's the best option for me? Recoil isn't a problem (I'm 250 lbs) so much as the BANG. It's hard to hold still.   Perhaps a stupid question, but since they're "All 30-cal" rounds, is there a gun that shoots more than one variety? What about like w/ the 300's? There's about 20-different 'sizes' or 300 rifle rounds... but each gun will only fire one type? This brings me back to availability, cost, parts, supplies, etc. where I think I'm willing to trade off a foot of drop @ 300 yds. for 50-cents per click and Walmart-Availability? My aim isn't that steady yet anyways! :LOL:   If I selected a 270-rifle, could it fire regular as well as 270 (short) magnums? And WTF is the 270 Weatherby, and why does it cost 2-3 bucks a shell?   I'm leaning towards purchasing a used gun initially, to help save money and find out what works best for me. I've found the folks at Frontier Firearms here in Kingston to be pretty helpful that way, and they offer 'try-before-you-buy', which is really nice. I was able to try one of their Springfield XD-M's for a reasonable price last week!   Thanks again!   - K  

  Thanks 10-Ring! Care to comment on which you like better, or do you have a preference for one over the other for specific tasks? Thanks.   - K  

  Thanks Jonnin, that does help.... Now if I can recall from HS Physics class, P=M*V, where M=Mass and V=Velocity... so I can plot a chart easily enough comparing the weights vs. velocity's, etc., and see where the 'sweet spot for me' is for whatever round I decide to go with? And that will describe the momentum, or stopping power, of said round at said distance? (heavier round will have more power, but at a cost to velocity, which affects trajectory at different ranges).   I found some ballistics calculators on Gundata.org, and some good articles as well (though they suggest the 270 over 30-06!)   Thanks again!   - K  

Wow, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful responses. Thanks for the ballistics chart Runco, that does a great job of helping me visualize things. I'm going to look that up in some of the other sizes mentioned!   Sorry if my post was confusing for some, I appreciate the help. By "Long Range" I meant around 200 yds. Getting much beyond that will be hard even at a good range, and as I said, I'm not a hunter, so don't_really_ need to target game out beyond that. That being said, I want to acquire the firearm and become proficient at it should the need ever arise... Be it 4-legged or not. I do want to be able to impart significant energy at that distance and put the target into the dirt with the first round, hence why I was leaning to the larger size. Being a very common size, I also anticipate availability to be good across the spectrum of bulk rounds, hi-quality, reloading, etc. HOWEVER if I can get similar results from a smaller round, w/ less recoil, cheap lead, and equally 'available', then I'd certainly consider it, as the Total-Cost-Of-Ownership for such rifle will be much less... and frankly, I hope I never HAVE to use the thing (just want to be prepared in the event).   We are also looking at farmland/homesteads in rural settings, and I anticipate run-ins w/ Local Fauna inspecting our livestock, crops, and like issue's, so effectiveness will trump cost benefits. But lets face it, most of the lead is going to end up in the dirt-pile behind an iron-target in the back corner of my lot.   I don't really have a budget per se, but I don't need to impress anyone at the range, and obviously don't have the skill to warrant a $1500 rifle. I've been looking at the M1A, the Ruger American Rifle, and Remington's. I have a Mossberg Shotgun I'm less-than-impressed with. Frankly I'd rather a used Remmy than a new off-brand after that experience.   Admittedly I find the array of rounds confusing... I simply don't have enough experience nor know enough to select between them all (that chart really helped, though I think I like the 300 WinMag!) Is there a big difference between the various .30- rounds? Growing up in the NE I knew lots of people that hunted deer w/ 30-06 and 12-ga. slugs, but not many would attempt 200 yd. shots. Having sat in a few fields thinking about what I want this gun to do, I'd like to be able to try 300-500 yd. shots... but wouldn't expect to do it often.   So good knockdown power and trajectory out to 500 yds would be about the maximum? Affordable, common, easy to find/trade, etc. I was quite surprised at the situation that's come up w/ .22's. That's one reason I'm searching for a highly available round to build a rifle around. What about the various styles of bullet? Would a hollow-point of a smaller round be as effective as FMJ of a larger since more of the energy is absorbed by the target? I've heard some great things of the .243/.270's   What's the difference between a .308 and 300 WinMag? Bigger bang and a slightly smaller bullet = flatter trajectory? Do the longer barrels increase accuracy significantly, or does the extra weight make aiming that much more difficult? A friend had a nice Stainless Steel Barrel rifle that he let me shoot that was very nice, but I found the regular steel easier to shoot, as the stainless was too light? However they were both short-barrels. I would like more than an 18", but don't know if I should be searching for 24"?   I was very grateful to John @ Fighting Sheep Dog and the folks at Windrock Shooting range for their Range-Day w/ the AR's last month. Was a great time, a lot of fun, and I learned a lot. Got to try a bunch of AR builds, including a 300-Blackout model. Nothing like a few boxes of ammo to decide if something's for you? Anyone w/ an M1A or a Ruger and some space, care to let me buy you some ammunition in the Kingston/Knoxville area, please drop me a line! No, that's not me in the avatar....   Thanks again!   - K  

I know it's dangerous starting a 'which round is best debate', but I'm looking at a getting a rifle. Primarily for shooting at the range, and long-range shooting. I don't hunt currently, however an additional purpose of said rifle, besides plinking @ 200 yds., is in the event I ever DO need to shoot something, 2 or 4-legged.... I only want to have to hit it once. I want a powerful round that can touch something at a distance, yet doesn't cost a buck-and-a-half a pop! I've shot some AR's, and they're not to my liking. I'm more interested in on old-school semi-auto or bolt-action, iron sights as well as scoped, long barrel is fine, it will be my stress reliever (and occasionally put to real use on the farm). I don't want just a varmint gun. Want something that can take down a deer, or possibly larger, and at a distance. I've primarily been considering .308, but for quality ammunition, that's an expensive day at the range. Whatever I get I'll want to reload, but I still want to be cost conscious, when selecting the cartridge. I'm concerned w/ some of the less-common sizes being able to get the ammunition if availability get scarce, so kind of hoping to stick to one of the more common ones. A friend has suggested I get a quality Mosin Nagant and a nice scope dialed in, but want to consider other options, idea's, and cartridges. Thanks for your input!   - Kevin  

I can't comment as to the gun, but my old boss back in NY got a new Rifle that was .223 and he took it out a few times before I left... LOVED IT. Said he was shooting 2" groups at 100 yds out of the box, 3" @ 200 yds. Never did any further testing. :cool: