ma6907

The actual physiology of what happens between animals and humans is shockingly the same. The BEHAVIOR post being shot, however, is not. Humans are influenced by things like movie myths and also an awareness of the situation surrounding being shot, whereas animals no not have this awareness. Humans will react to how their brains tell them they should from things like movie myths (such as simply laying down or falling down when their injury does not necessitate that they should have to) but will also frequently keep going and run away when they probably SHOULD lay down. It is a very fascinating science (to me) to figure out why some fall down and some run away. Most handgun rounds are NOT capable of incapacitating a human instantly without some kind of trauma to the central nervous system (brain or spinal cord). Of course scientifically if a handgun were capable of knocking down a human, it would also knock down the shooter shooting it. Some rifles and shotguns ARE capable of knocking down a human, which is why we have recoil pads and lead sleds to shoot them.

I of course agree with almost everything said here but I have to wonder what the cause of the stop and drop effect was from 2 shots to the leg and one to the abdomen? Even in a bleed out situation there is normally around 2 1/2 min before the person who is shot becomes incapacitated. Had to be a fragment to the spinal cord? Or perhaps the guy just layed down? (which also happens.) As Xtriggeman suggested a shot to the brain is always incapacitating, even if not fatal. A shot to the spinal cord is as well. The percussive shock to the spinal cord (AND separately the brain) will nearly always incapacitate a human. Several documented cases of muzzle flash ALONE incapacitating an attacker who was not even shot. The most prominent study on these phenomena comes from Dr Martin Fackler's book about the Miami FBI Shootout. Fackler's work on this subject is also where we got ballistics gel.

Classic brand of .357 Magnum. Hard to go wrong.

I can tell you from my personal experience, get the biggest one that you can fit in the area you wish to put it and the biggest one you can afford. I had advice from my Uncle (the kind of guy I listen to) that you cannot buy one too big. he said I would end up filling it up. I bought the biggest I could comfortably put into the space and he was correct. I filled it RIGHT up. Mostly with guns and ammo but keep in mind that a big safe is a nice thing to have. Great spot to store ANYTHING that is best kept under lock and key. In thinking back, I can rarely think of anyone complaining about buying "too big". As far as fire rating, most of that is just bunk. I have been involved in several "post fire" clean ups and all the guns were lost in a cheap safe and in an expensive safe. Ratings of 1600 degrees for 30 min and all that stuff is not pertinent in the real world. The most important factor is that the warranty is basically an insurance policy that will replace your weapons when they are ruined by the 2 or 3 hour fire that consumed them (for more than the 30 min fire rating time.) PS--I have the EXACT model that you posted the picture of--The Cannon. Has suited me just fine. I bought mine off of Craigslist for $600 used.

I have never tried this, but THIS GUY (again, I have never tried it) claims that it is actually better to shoot .40 out of a Glock 20 http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/06/jeremy-s/40-in-a-10mm-glock/

I like semi auto handguns in the 4 inch "Commander" size. I have really found that I gravitate to the DA/SA style and I LOVE the Sig SRT trigger. I also have Glocks and love the simplicity. I have never been a huge fan of the 1911 style weapons, especially the grip safety and generally find that I tend to avoid any handgun with a grip safety. I do like the Sig p238, and despite the fact that I do not feel the .380 to be optimal, I find it is best for me with my usually May-October attire. I like the Glock 27 and the Sig p224 Extreme to be my go tos for early spring and light fall attire. My Sig 229 Elite is my single favorite pistol of any in my collection. I rarely carry it, but it is my "gun course" gun when I take classes, and my bedside gun if something goes bad. My p224 is an almost exact copy but smaller. For travel, I almost always pack my Glock 23 with an extra 22 round extended factory Glock Mag. All of the usual guns that I carry (except my .380) are chambered in .40. I choose .40 because: #1 I have stockpiled a BUNCH of it. #2 I like it. #3 because Massad Ayoob says the easiest shootings to defend in court are when the shooter is using the exact same caliber as local law enforcement. If I were to start my collection over today, I would likely choose the same weapons in 9mm, but that would be defeating now for my system and I like .40 just fine. I have various and sundry others in multiple calibers including my beloved Colt wheelguns (.38 special Agent snubnose, .44 Magnum anaconda, and .357 Python.) I have several "randoms" including a .380 Baretta full sized (don't remember the model), a S&W .357 Model 66. Those are mostly just for fun. My wife likes her S&W 642 and ONLY carries that weapon.

I DO have a Colt Stainless Anaconda .44 mag, but I SHOOT my Dan Wesson .44 mag. It is built like a TANK and a pleasure to shoot. My wife likes to load .44 special and take it to the range. I go through phases where I think, this thing is too heavy. Then I realize that I am holding a .44 mag. It is NOT a carry gun. Who cares if it is heavy. it is fun to shoot and can be purchased for less than $700. And it has really neat interchangeable barrels. Not sure why I would ever want the 2 inch barrel on there, but if I ever do--I can. In case anyone has not looked lately--Colt Snake wheelguns are selling for CRAZY prices now.

I like to SHOOT the 10mm and keep one by my bed, but for CARRY, I like to carry the .40 for the reasons outlined above. Also, I have MANY friends in LE who bring me .40 ammo for free. As such I have a huge amount of defensive LE .40 rounds (cop rounds). In fact I usually take it with me to the range and trade it to guys there for FMJ at the range. They seem happy and it frequently shoots cleaner and I don't have to buy much. Many of the "2nd Amendment IS my permit" crowd does not like Massad Ayoob, but he is the definitive expert on defense in court of a defensive shooting--so I personally listen to him.

So, now I am curious. I have been in and out of this forum for a while. Don't post much--mainly just read stuff--but I cannot seem to find (when searching) the "Comms discussion". I am aware of different "caliber masturbation" conversations, but not this particular one. I will say I have a pretty good reason that I carry .40 most of the time--because that is what the majority of LE carries. In studying the writings of Massad Ayoob, he suggests that people carry what local LE carries. For me that is .40. He says it is much easier to defend in court (if you end up there) because it is easier to argue that it is what the cops carry--and they are not out to KILL people. I am personally concerned with defending my actions in court since it is a VERY real possibility that I will end up there after an armed encounter. I am totally unconcerned about "caliber masturbation" as I know that they are all (for the most part) the same. I DO believe that there are 2 which in my mind have better ballistics--.357 Sig and 10mm. For a while I attempted to carry .357 Sig. but the ammo is SO much more expensive that I found it to be impractical. For 10mm, the case of Harold Fish turned me off of that round for carry. If you have not heard of Harold Fish, look him up. Briefly, he was a retired school teacher that carried a 10mm for bear defense in Arizona. He was attacked by a mentally ill attacker and shot and killed him. He was convicted of 2nd degree murder because he carried the 10 mm round that is "too hot for the FBI". His case was ultimately overturned after he spent several years in prision and spent over 1 millon dollars. I don't have that much time or money--so I go with Massad's recommendation--carry what the local cops carry. Again, for me that is .40

Free is certainly my favorite kind of deal. The do come around occasionally. Kind of hard to find fault with a free weapon that goes bang. Worse case scenario it can be a glove box gun.

I have never had much luck with ankle carry. I have tried to make it work and really WANTED to make it work, but in the end decided it is not right for ME. I have also come to the realization that I end up trying/buying several holsters for each weapon before I find one that I like. And sometimes one configuration for one weapon does not work for me for another weapon. SOMETIMES I decide that a configuration will NOT work before I wear the holster very much but usually I end up unable to return and toss it in a drawer. Good luck with your desired weapon/holster configuration--but for ME, it never works that way.

I certainly do not disagree. That is another way of phrasing what I already said. Penetration IS the most important factor for most handgun rounds. there is NOT enough energy in most handgun rounds to "knock someone down" and or disable someone unless the round somehow imparts trauma to the CNS. This does not NECESSARILY mean sever the CNS but that is the only reliable way. For this reason, i am always curious why people who carry smaller rounds (lkie .380) would want hollow points. The less energy in a round, the more you need to maximize penetration. I carry a 380 occasionally (as attire dictates) and when I do I carry FMJ. Size of the hole is FAR less important than depth of the hole. On in some cases MAKING a hole. 12 or so inches of ballistics gel penetration is kind of the minimum. Most good .380 rounds can roughly approach that. hitting 10-11.5 on the average (average by my eye. I have not calculated the actual average). I would however pretty much completely agree with the statement that penetration IS the most important determination. That is why the FBI uses penetration as the metric to which a round must penetrate as the determining factor. AND why we have the 10mm round today AND why we subsequently have the .40 today--because of the penetration. Dr Martin Fackler, an MD who worked with the FBI, is the pioneer of this concept and I have read the majority of his writings. He was a pretty sharp fella, and he very clearly spells this out in his book, which is 900 pages long and VERY interesting (to me).

The Federals you have there are some of the "Anemic" rounds I was describing. 424 f/lbs of muzzle energy. That is 9mm territory. If I wanted 424 ft/lbs in a 10mm projectile, I would shoot .40. In fact, the Federal JHP .40 S%W DOES deliver 400 f/lbs which is only negligibly less--functionally the same energy. That is PITIFUL for a 10 mm.

I will for sure look into Underwood. Let me know if you want to part with a box? The Dan Wesson looks nice. I have a Dan Wesson .44 magnum with interchangeable barrels. It is a BEAST. Curiously, it is my wife's favorite pistol to shoot at the range. Large frame .44 magnum loaded with .44 special. 8 inch barrel and that thing is a tack driver. You ought to see the other guy's faces at the gun club when she brings that thing out and starts mowing down the knock down targets.

And yes, blood loss and blood pressure does incapacity people--but typically not instantly. Typically, a human will be incapacitated by such an injury in around 2 min. A CNS trauma is the only way to instantly incapacitate a human with a handgun caliber weapon. Notice I said CNS trauma, not CNS "shot." A human can be incapacitated by CNS trauma that does not involve actual penetration--such as a percussion injury. There are many reported cases of humans being "knocked out" by being hit by a projectile from a firearm that did not penetrate, and a few reports of humans being knocked unconscious from the percussive blast when not even shot at ALL. One such case was the famous 1986 Miami FBI shootout where one suspect was knocked unconscious when his co-conspirator reached from the drivers side and fired a .223 round from a Ruger Mini-14 rifle out the passenger window with the muzzle right in his face. It knocked him out even though he was not hit or even fired at, specifically (he was fired at, but not that shot that knocked him out). Despite typical chat room experts professing otherwise, a thru and thru shot to the heart will NOT always reliably incapacitate an attacker instantly. In the Miami shootout, the other suspect was shot in the lung severing several vessels (and lodging against his heart)very early in the shootout he continued the gunfight for 2 min and 42 seconds and fired off over 100 more shots--AFTER the fatal shot hit him. He had 1.3 liters of blood in his lung on autopsy. The shot that stopped him (but not the shot that killed him) was a shot that "bruised his spinal cord" due to temporary cavity blast from a .357 Magnum. Interestingly both suspects were shot in the head and torso by MANY shots (Platt, the driver, was hit in both feet, his dominant hand, several times in the head and several in the torso, a total of 12 times with the fatal shot being one of the first--and the shot that ended the fight being a cns trauma that would not have been fatal but did knock him out.

I apparently missed the Comms discussion. I have participated in enough of those type discussions to know I want no part of them. I know quite a bit about terminal ballistics AND about human physiology. Those discussions are generally filled with "bigger is better" people (who are wrong), "my favorite is better than your favorite" (who are kind of right in that their favorite is likely better for them), "I am smarter than you" (which is usually false), "I just want to argue with you" (ok. Im out), and various other usual suspects. Only the names change. If you participate in a few of these, you have read them all.

I have a different light on the 229 now. These are older pics that I had easy access to, while laying on my a_$ on a lazy Sunday.

I guess I missed the discussion. I agree that all handgun calibers are a trade off and that one can get much better results from long guns (I have those, too), but what you get with a handgun is portability. I understand the muzzle energy trade off, but much harder to conceal my Remington 870. Also it is kind of heavy. I have a Colt Anaconda 44 magnum. It gets pretty good muzzle energy, but also kind of heavy. And very shiny.

I seemingly miss why I should be a 40 hater. I think it is a great round. I have a number of 40s--Glock 23 and 27, Sig 229 Elite (with SRT) and 224 (Extreme with SRT). Probably a few more I am forgetting. I know the 9mm people will argue that new technology elevates the 9mm and I agree. Does that same technology not elevate the 40? When I look at muzzle energy (which I think is a very underrated metric), the 40 is still a very compelling round. Plus I have a lot of the ammo and it is still cheap and easy to find. And seemingly (probably because everyone is changing to 9mm) getting cheaper? I hope everyone but me starts hating 40, more cheap ammo for me

I ordered some Corbon. Same order as the Buffalo Bore. Have not fired it. I also got some Freedom Munitions range ammo. also not fired that. So far I have fired the Sig ammo in it and some remaufactured ammo from Reloader's Bench. Neither was BAD and both very accurate but both seemingly pretty anemic. I did not measure velocity or anything, just fired it at paper and steel on a few range trips. Was waiting until i had more to really fire the weapon. It was SO hard to find locally. I did not want to fire it ALL off till I had a few hundred rounds in reserve. Now I have about 1000 so Ill be able to get a few 200 round (or so) range trips under my belt. I was afraid if I shot off the 150 rounds that I could find on the shelves, I would have a gun with NO ammo (which is a crime in my mind). I don't know what all the guys with Glock 10mms do? They must sell a lot of them? I see them everywhere. I know 10 mm is not as popular as many rounds but weapons are becoming more and more popular and ammo is seemingly NOT. Maybe I am just unlucky?

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any hot loads except for Buffalo Bore, which I ordered and have not fired, My biggest disappointment so far is that the loads available in the stores are sparse to find and very anemic shooting. Several times I have thought, "if I wanted to shoot a round this anemic, I would have shot my .40s for 1/2 the price." I have stocked up on mail order ammo though and will be firing that off soon enough. I do not reload, yet.

Love it. Heavy enough so that the recoil is manageable. I actually like the .40. Or as I like to call it, 10mm short. I would like the 10mm more if I could easily find ammo locally. Ordering it is a pain.

I am sorry for the multiple posts. I am still figuing out how to insert pictures and thought it was not working.

I just discovered the STI Perfect 10. They are pretty proud of it. I still may have to have one. Sig also has a 1911 10mm that is announced and listed on the Lipsey's website but there are no photos that I can find. I have the Sig P220 Match Elite 10 mm 2 tone. It is very sweet. I am partial the the Sig DA/SA action and I LOVE (love love) the Sig SRT.

I have a Sig 220 10mm. Not that easy to find ammo locally. Anyone have any tips (Mt Juliet-Nashville area). I have ordered almost all I have, but would love to be able to run in and buy some somewhere reliable? Been to all the local suspects (Gander, Academy, Reloader's Bench, Bass Pro) with VERY spotty success. Tips?