E4 No More

You can go ludicrous all you want, but a right is not dependent upon training...period.

That doesn't matter. The pretense of the argument is that training prevents such things. It matters not how many.

@chances R Because this method of discussion is not the best for conveying ideas clearly, let me put this bluntly: American citizens have the right to protect ourselves from ANYONE who wishes us harm whether that be from a foreign army, our own government, or a criminal, and that right is not contingent upon receiving training from anyone. Is that reality? No, because we've compromised that with either ignorance or acceptance for whatever reason that sounds good to us. Although I haven't researched and compiled the numbers, I'd bet that the average driver gets far more safety training than the average gun owner, yet more people are killed with automobiles than guns, (not including suicide like the liberals like to add).

I disagree. If forced training were a requirement then it would have been written as such. You can't convince me that the same Founding Fathers who wrote such well thought-out documents designing our government had a brain-fart when it came to that part of the 2nd Amendment. And while militias were prevalent you cannot convince me, without evidence, that the 16-year old male in New York City had the same expectations as the 16-year old male on the frontier facing the Shawnee. You also seem to forget that Washington had a hell of a time whipping his "militia-trained" citizen soldiers into fighting shape. If they were so well-trained they wouldn't have needed any further training. And during a war has absolutely NOTHING to do with getting shot by accident regardless of the fact that his people knew he was out scouting. You're suppose to 1. Identify your target before shooting, and 2. Challenge people approaching the sentry line. According to some "trainers" that shouldn't happen. Again, I don't fault someone for making a living out of training those who want to purchase your service, but that doesn't entitle anyone to try to change the constitution to fit their belief system.

I don't see the relevance to safety or right to carry arms safely. Might I remind everyone the Stonewalll Jackson was accidentally shot by one of his own, very trained and experienced men?

And that's my point: training does not guarantee safety 100% of the time no matter how much you train. I would argue that under combat conditions the five basic rules of firearms safety is not in the forefront of anyone's mind. Under a true case of fight-or-flight, your true instincts take over. Now, you can train yourself to have some of those things be instinctual, but how often does someone actually train for safety like they do to actually survive the fight? What I'm getting from you is that you think that professional training will drive that from someone and thus entitle their selves to somehow be more qualified to carry a gun outside the home than someone else, and that simply isn't true. Luckily, I have never had to shoot someone, but I have come within a half a trigger pull on a revolver, (cylinder turned and hammer about to drop), from shooting someone. I experienced the tunnel-vision of fight-or-flight. The only thought that I can recall having was seeing a brick wall behind the suspect so I was clear to shoot if I had too, but that was more of an observation than a cogitative thought. I was not thoughtful of keeping my finger off the trigger. Quite the contrary, I'd bet that I very much so had my finger on the trigger as I brought the gun out of the holster. As I was concentrating on the threat I was completely unaware of whether or not my barrel was pointed in a safe direction or if I swept someone else. What I do recall the most, however, is how angry I became at the suspect for making me come so close to taking his life over something so stupid as to him trying to lay a baseball bat against someone else's head over a parking squabble. I wanted to beat the every lov'n out of him!

I actually made a bullet stop out of stacked railroad ties up over 8 feet high in a stretched "V" shape locking them in with rebar pins. I then piled dirt up against the inside of the "V". My back field is long, flat, and kept mowed giving me up to about 300 yards to shoot from. Woods and distance back-up the bullet stop. I wish it didn't get so danged hot so quickly during the summers. I pretty much only use it in the spring and fall.

So how many trainers have shot either themselves or others on accident, or have simply had negligent discharges? Answer: Numerous.

Really? Where is that in the Constitution? I seem to recall lots of pictures/paintings of the period, and not a one of them included a HCP or similar.

Don't be surprised to find those getting forbidden. The healthcare powers that be say that gaiters are ineffective.

Another reason to anonymize everything.

Yes, particularly the cauliflower ones.

I didn't live back then and I taught myself to shoot. My parents had nothing to do with it as they were Democrats living in the safe suburbs north of Kansas City, MO. I've never shot anyone - although I've come close in the performance of my duties. I've known of several cases of "trained" people both in the Marine Corps and on police departments that have "accidentally" shot people - including killing some. While I do not fault trainers for making a living from training people nor those that want to spend their money paying trainers, I don't believe they can train someone to actually be absolutely focused 100% of the time that they handle a gun. That is up to the individual, and it's well-established that people's ability to focus varies greatly no matter their training. What I do think would help is showing anyone wanting to carry a gun is pictures of what a projectile, (rifle, pistol, or shot), does to human flesh, and the unvarnished financial and emotional impact that a moment of inattention can do to their lives using real-life instances. Kind of like the videos we were shown as teenagers when we went through driving school, but taken to the next level with how it effected their lives. When I was trained by the FBI, we went days being shown crime scene and autopsy photos of every manner of death someone can suffer. That was over 29 years ago and I can still picture a lot of them in my mind. It's very sobering.

Then you have cases like in North Carolina that sent out a LOT of false positive reports due to a "glitch" in a computer system. I love how people will blame the computer for their mistakes.

The reference I am making is not making the area a "free-fire" zone. The reference is someone breaking their way into your car. That person can be shot just like if they were breaking into your home. That doesn't mean you can shoot everyone around the car.

I wonder how our forefathers ever got by before firearm trainers came into being? Yes, that was sarcasm.

Yes, in Tennessee the car is like your house.

I will not use my vehicle to run people down to escape. That's pretty hard to defend being no different than accidentally shooting a bystander standing behind a person trying to kill you. As much as it sucks, I have insurance for the vehicle. My vehicles automatically lock the doors when in drive, so if someone busts the window to drag me or mine out then lead will fly as that is carjacking.

Really poor form for a kneeling position being displayed there.

I believe that it is illegal under federal statutes to impeded an Interstate. I base this on the signs that used to be posted on the ramps that prohibited pedestrian traffic. https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2016/09/is-it-legal-for-protesters-to-block-traffic.html Blame the Mayors for allowing it to happen.

The chances of my wife and I retiring were destroyed in the 2009 crash. We'll have to work until we just can't physically do it anymore.

I have enough ammo to end, discourage, or die during an attack at my country home. At least I'd take-out a few. From the time that I was a cop, my whole mindset was to at least live long enough to kill the SOB that kills me. At age 60, I have no delusions of surviving a running gun battle with a younger foe.

There's good and bad with most things.

That would be a tough one for me. I don't like anything in my ears for very long. I don't really like things over my ears very long either. It's going to suck when I need hearing aids.