Smith

Here you go Strickj. [url="http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/07/09/the-true-meaning-of-separation-of-church-and-state/"]http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/07/09/the-true-meaning-of-separation-of-church-and-state/[/url]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1352493775' post='842637'] Stated while sitting president. Held fast for over 200 years. It is not just a modern day heathen opinion. [/quote] Re-read that Strickj. He says "establishment". Until recently that has been intepreted as the govenement not "establishing" a state denomitnation. Thus, the first part of that quote. "Between man and his God" hardly sounds like " between man and his God or lack thereof."

[quote name='AK Guy' timestamp='1352491046' post='842611'] Yeah, it's been so oppressive here for so long. [b]Strickj, we've been over this [/b]and your Cornell intepretatio quote via wikipedia does not an agrument make. Why not just quote Sotomayor. [/quote] No need to to rehash it here.

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1352490524' post='842608'] American taliban. read the Establishment Clause. The First has been interpreted the same way since Jefferson wrote "separation of church and state". From Cornel Law This is not opinion. [/quote] Yeah, it's been so oppressive here for so long. Strickj, we've been over this and your Cornell intepretatio quote via wikipedia does not an agrument make. Why not just quote Sotomayor.

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1352489672' post='842601'] Huh? Demanding religion to be removed from government does not mean that I want government controlling us. Quite the opposite actually. I do not want the government controlling, sponsoring and showing preference to any religion. Just like that pesky First Amendment says... [/quote] Freedom "of". Not freedom "from".

This was never about Obama or Romney or democrat our republican. It was and is about the electorate.

JAB, have you been reading Das Kapital?

Aren't gun laws great! The more I read the more like tax code these things sound.

Lester i make no assumption about political party. However, the values of our current parties are clear. As has happened in the past that could very well flip flop and change. I'm not tied to defending a party but there is no denying their is a sharp contrast between the current two. The Bible is also very clear on what type of "government" God intended and there is no denying that it was a prophet lead society. Kings came about because of mans stubbornness. Samuel warned them that a king would take their freedom and yet they demanded a king like the other nations. Like a father with stubborn children, God allowed them what they demanded and they got what we have gotten. So no, you can't make the scripture read what you want it to be anymore than the liberals can make the constitution a "living" document and maintain original intent.

I agree but it appears inevitable. I'd rather me be here to go through it with my kids then leaving them or their children to do our work. Not real exciting either way.

First, I never said we were founded on a specific religion. Judeo-Christian values is a very broad concept that includes all if the founding fathers root ideology even encompassing much of Islam. Deist included. Secondly, I guess all the scriptures chiseled into all if our federal buildings and monuments, the ten commandments watching over most of the highest federal court, the fact that every president, senator, judge, and congressman is sworn in on the Bible, and"In God We Trust" marked all over our currency (just to name a few) are definite marks of a secular humanist society.

[quote name='HvyMtl' timestamp='1352348229' post='841645']No, Romney was being handled by some of the same GOP handlers that controlled Dubya. Mitt would have been Dubya II, fighting a war in Ira[s]q[/s]n. We would have had the same type of SCOTUS candidates (Like a certian Chief Justice that burned us on Obamacare) same foreign policy, same terrable (proven worse than O's) handling of the economy (though, honestly most of that control resides with Congress, not the President), same uselessness. O is bad, but I do not think he reaches the depths of Dubya bad. What I learned: The GOP needs an enema. It needs to cut the chaffe away, get rid of the direction it is flailing in, and get back to a more Libertarian principal. Mitt should have NEVER been an acceptable candidate for President. McCain was more realistic, and he was awful. 3 terrible Presidential candidates in a row (Dubya, McCain, Mitt) equals a party that needs a massive overhaul. You need to check again, several Founding Fathers were not Christian, or Jewish. They based this new found experiment on other previous governments, such as the Romans (pre-existed Christianity) Athens, and the like. Ben Franklin was a Diest, and Diesm was a major factor in our Revolution. True, there was some influence from Jewish and Christian beliefs. Arguably, other religions impacted too. Confusionism? Yes, even Islamic governments may have had impact in the design. These were learned men. Intellectuals. They studied a lot of different things, and attempted to gleen the best of all governments preceeding, to create a better nation. Limiting to Christian-Judeo beliefs is not a true concept of this Nation's founding. True, the majority of this nation is of the Christian Faith. To be more specific, Catholic. By default, you should be saying a Catholic nation. As they are the largest religious group, and therefore, have the most influence. Socially, the US may have been Christian, Catholic, for the most part. But, all religions, even those most Christian faiths believe are not religions, are allowed here. (And several Christian faiths do not believe Mormanism is Christianity...) So, what is the largest growing ethnicity? Hispanics. What is their primary religous standing? Catholic. Oh, and perhaps we are more Christian than you think. Or do you not believe in, ""Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's," Matthew 22:21. Perhaps that is the deal, God not wanting you to concern yourself so much with worldy affairs over heavenly ones...[/quote] You're reinforcing my original point. How in the world can you claim Bush was as bad or worse than Obama? What quantifiable measurement are you using? Economics? No. Welfare? No. Unemployment? No. natural resources/gas prices? No. Deficit spending? No. Supreme court oppoinments? Disappointing, but still no. Immigration? Closer but still.. No. Foreign policy? Bengazi......

If you look at the map by counties, its nearly all red. The only blue counties are the ones with major cities. Interesting.

Make sure you come get them when I'm there. We need to catch up.

[quote name='atlas3025' timestamp='1352327640' post='841376'] It is tempting to say let the lefties have it so we can start over...but we will lose our guns, freedom, and happiness in the meantime, and probably die before the rebuilding begins. Its like a German-Jew lamenting in 1938 that he hopes Hitler gets his way so that society collapses and they can build a new unified Jew friendly Deutschland. Did I just compare The Left to the Nazis? They are all totalitarians, so sure. I did. [/quote] That's why i'm only giving them the economics, not giving in on the social side.

[quote name='HvyMtl' timestamp='1352325872' post='841359'] We were never considered a Christian-Judeo government, even by the Founding Fathers. See the Treaty of Tripoli, written in 1796, approved by the 2nd President, a certain John Adams. See the treaty's article 11. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Treaty_of_Tripoli_as_communicated_to_Congress_1797.png"]http://en.wikipedia....ngress_1797.png[/url] This misconception is a more recent creation. [/quote] Yeah, we've been over that an I'm not proposing that being a Judeo-Christian nation constitutes an established religion or institution However, it is undeniable that we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles of law, freedom, ethic, and government. As we have openly moved to remove those foundations we have eroded the very fabric of individual freedom that gave this country it's stability and greatness. We no longer have a traditional work ethic, traditional family values, traditional understanding of societal responsibility, traditional values. Traditional=Judeo-Christian. I hope people are honest enough to see that you can not remove our original foundation without destabilizing and destroying everything. You don't have to be a Christian to hold Judeo-Christian principles. The truth's are universal and not subject to one religion, but Christianity is subject to those truth's.That was proven in plain sight on Nov. 6th. BTW - I don't see this as giving up. I see it like the prodigal son.

[quote name='CCI' timestamp='1352322698' post='841307'] Nov. 10 ??, did you mean the 6th! [/quote] Haha, I was prophesying! Yeah, I meant 6th.

I've heard the arguments back and forth on the moral decline of our society, the Judeo-Christian ethic, whether or not we were founded on Religious principles, and whether we were a humanist secular nation or a Christian nation and up to this point it was mainly academic with pointers going in both directions. Last night I saw it quantified. How any one could vote for and not see through a thinly cloaked avowed socialist who has proven that his ideology is divisive and destructive can only mean one of two things. Either Americans are not very bright or we have ceased to be a culture that looked out for his fellow man and are willing to burn it all to the ground as long as we get our Union pensions, welfare, cell phone, government checks, and healthcare, Two things that became reality last night: 1. We are no longer a Judeo-Christian nation and govern by the principles of our founding fathers and documents. 2. The secular-humanist now outnumber the conservatives. You can argue that these are good things, but every part of our society that is measurable would refute that claim. You can argue that we are progressing, yet every quantifiable measurement would deny that. We only have to look at the history of those who have gone before us in Germany, Russia, Italy, Greece, France, China, England, Spain ........... Argue what you may, but the moral decline in America is now quantifiable and present. We have stripped the values of our founding from the highest levels of authority and this is what we have been left with. This is not fatalist, but I propose we let the socialist have full economic control and let them finish what is unavoidable. By fighting it we only prolong the pain and suffering that is inevitable. When it is in ashes and the people cry out for redemption, we rebuild from the beginning, fresh and new. My 2 cents or 1/2 cent once inflation catches up.

I lean more towards this being a good example of an inept bureaucratic government than a conspiracy to block votes. Of course it's always hard to tell because like Obama, he is either a crazy liberal genius or an inept liberal bureaucrat.

[indent=1]This happens every election does it not?[/indent]

[quote name='Sam1' timestamp='1352146596' post='839480'] That guy is a tool, obviously he was doing it to stir up ####. That's like licking a plugged in electric cord and suing the power company because you got shocked. [/quote] Indeed it is.

Just called and they don't have me in the system. Sent a MO with paperwork a month ago.

[quote name='C.lunn' timestamp='1352088129' post='839267'] Really? Who are you then AK guy? I used to go in there all the time.[/quote] Haha, changed my scream name from Smith.

Love converting Saiga's. Very nice start. Bring it by the shop if you need any help down the road.

[quote name='Jesse' timestamp='1352068556' post='839071'] Once you start off spanking youll prob stick with it much like people who smoke. You cant spank then do timeouts and expect them to work. I still stick with spanking is just being lazy no matter what anyone says. We started timeouts and taking away toys with our kid since she was 6 months old. She is 6 now and is very resonable and kind, she knows right from wrong. She is pretty politicaly correct for her age. She is a calm kid compared to hyper 6 year olds like I was. We havent gotten on to her in weeks. She beside me now playing Angry Birds. You dont have to spank, but if its something the parents fill they must bring out of their bag of parenting skills, then so be it. Just remember kids do as they see and hear. [/quote] I can tell you that the difference between one kid and several makes a big difference as well. One kid is pretty darn easy. When you get out numbered it can turn on you pretty quickly, just sayin.