Oh Shoot

Yes, and I admit that a certain part of the boom is being devil's advocate ... I see that FG has sided with your interpretation, too, and that hurts ... I'd contend that the intent is that the owner has a "place of business", anyone else has a "place of employment". There are lots of terms in TCA that aren't exactly defined, and certainly unintended use of some that are. People get away with a lot more than they don't, in every aspect of the law. Perhaps direct family would be considered as owners also, since without corporate entity they are direct heirs to it. Or perhaps "place of business" was intended to cover "managers" of larger businesses where the owner is not generally present, or someone in control of the business operation (which might indeed give an out to whoever is minding the store that day, I'll give you that) who knows? Does it cover a pastor of a church? Churches don't have "owners", and most congregations can fire pastors, protestant ones anyway, so the pastor is actually an employee. Etc. Quirk of the law, poorly worded as to intent, not unusual at all. Probably that particular exception for the juvenile, the "real property" exception, was put in there as legal opportunity for the juvenile to shoot on someone's land, as the other exceptions only mention "established range" and "organized competition" as opportunities to do so. Again, likely unintended use of "real property", which is actually legally defined, if not in TCA in law in general. Refer to "collective intelligence" in former post. Lots of "how cans" in TCA - the Weapons section is perhaps more rife with them than most: - How can I lose my HCP for 3 years if I get drunk in Red Lobster while packing but non-HCP guy with me who does same can get his HCP right after sentencing for carrying under influence and unlawful carry? - How can I lose HCP for carrying past a sign (untested, I know, but TCA says so), but non-HCP person can get HCP right after conviction for same? - How can I lose HCP for duration of Class A 'meanor conviction but non permit holder get his permit right after same conviction, including DUI? - How can I (as non-student adult) store a gun in my car on campus, but a student adult can't? (here's your juvenile/adult irony in reverse!) Etc, ad nauseam. All quirks, most all unintended. These guys on the Nashville Hill aren't the intelligentsia. Most aren't lawyers, and the ones that are aren't necessarily good ones. In spite of all the gray, I continue to posit that it is was not intended to include employees in the general sense, whether burger flippers or engineers, and a cop is as likely as not to arrest either one for carrying on the job without a permit should they be called there -- and a judge would likely convict him. And again, I'd state that people get away with a lot more than they don't -- God knows I have. - OS addendum: Btw, in trying to think of any case law, anyone know the outcome of that nightclub shootout thing in (middle?) TN not long ago involving the bouncers or "security"? Were those guys armed guard licensed, or have HCPs, or just armed via being at their "place of business"? What did they wind up being charged with, anything?

Tell him to go ahead and get an HCP as backup while he can still shoot. He'll never have to re-qualify. Then again, maybe there's no rush. Sheriff's qualification probably much harder - he should be able to pass the HCP shooting part as long as he can see well enough to walk in the door and hold a gun without dropping it. - OS

At LSU? Talk slowly and don't use big words. - OS

Might be hotter, might not, as 5.56 casing might be thicker, might not. SAAMI says 5.56 is rated to 62K psi but .223 only to 55K psi. CPI disagrees, rates them both at 62K. Anyway, main diff is in the chamber of gun, leade (throat) is longer on 5.56 chamber. But where shoulder of casing seats is the same and length of casings are the same, so headspace should be the same, right? - OS

Sport shooting is specific listed defense for unlawful carry. However, it doesn't apply on the way to the site in your vehicle. Far as carry on your grandmother's property, I suppose technically you could be guilty of unlawful carry, but as you say, who's gonna bust ya for that -- besides, you were hunting or sport shooting, eh? Plinking at rocks and tin cans is sport shooting. Both listed defenses. - OS

No worries, you have HCP. :) - OS

It really is hard to opine (even for me) with any real conviction one way or the other. As I've said often lately, the USA is in uncharted waters. I can't predict what I can barely even recognize. - OS

I assume they all have HCP, as you suggested in second part of your original post, that owner required that as part of employment. Yes, "carrying" is having a loaded gun on your person with intent to go armed (which definition is satisfied by the gun being loaded). You have none of the defenses listed for that in my apartment without an HCP. You'd have to find some far out judge to concede that you were "hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting" in my digs. No different than being caught with it in your car, just much less likely. Though I'm sure any number of folks have been arrested for it in private residences in the past (cops called for loud party, domestic stuff, etc). - OS

Not necessarily this time around. A conservative who out-reds Mitt (ie all of them) on 3rd party might could bust that. Ron Paul says he won't. Yeah, he says he won't. Maybe somebody will have to make him the Veep to keep him to his word. - OS

Little whooshie poo to my jokie poo? - OS

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." - OS

Overdosed. I did miss your other statement: "OS, there are lots of people that carry at their work, with permission from owner, that do not have permits." Could we have a few testimonials? I know of none. And if they are, I'd still contend they are carrying unlawfully. Where in statutes does it make it lawful for a non-permit holder to carry because the boss says it's okay? Again, it doesn't make it lawful for you to pack in my home if you don't have an HCP just because I tell you it's okay. Why should it be different at my business location, when a residence has the most legal protection of all places? - OS

Where does it say owner of a property can "allow" someone to break the law? Unless you agree that the burger flipper with no HCP has a right to carry at work under the enumerated statutes? OR he has the right if the "owner" says it's okay, even though that's NOT in the statutes? - OS

So now we have 57 states, or just 49, or we gave Hawaii to China to pay off debt, or what? Obama Admits to Being Born in Asia? - Yahoo! News - OS

Again, there just ain't enough marshals in the US to to this. - OS

What does permission matter for 1307? It is not a defense for unlawful carry in 1308 or any other statute (for an adult anyway). I can't even give you permission to carry as a non-HCP holder in my own apartment. If you're caught here packing you can be busted. - OS

You sidestepped my elaborate question. I pose it, because surely it HAS happened, hard to believe if it hasn't in all the years since 1307-1308 has been on the books (predates HCP by far, I'm sure): So I repeat: Bugerflipper at McDonalds is reported to police (by manager, customer, fellow worker, etc) as having a gun on him. Cops arrive, and sure enough, the guy has a loaded .38, no HCP. What do you think would happen, both at the scene and/or in court? 1. Cops let him go and he gets to keep loaded pistol on him because he has a right to carry at his place of business. 2. Cops arrest him for unlawful carry and take pistol. If 2, and lesser plea of disturbing peace or something not copped, then: 1. Judge throws out case because bugerflipper had right to carry at his place of business. 2. Bugerflipper convicted of unlawful carry. - OS

Noble sentiments, but if 3rd party vote puts O back in, hope you can live with them then, comrade. - OS

I was editing mistake as you were posting. - OS

Have you been snoozing? Debate is about non HCP holders legally carrying where they work, under 1308. Obviously, it is not a violation of 1307 to carry at your work with an HCP. You might get fired, but not prosecuted. Additionally, I would contend that except for owner, though, it is also a violation of 1351 to carry (with or without an HCP) at your workplace if place is properly posted. - OS

I'm so adamant about "anybody other than Obama", that should he be challenged within the party by someone that looks like would swing the election (think Hildebeeste) I'll vote in the Dem primary AGAINST him instead of the GOP one. - OS

Well, now your splitting the hair much finer. Also, we are both positing the intent of the legislature (which has the collective intelligence of a gifted amoeba), but: 1. Did the legislature intend to include business location under the "control of real property" wording as far as the minor is concerned? I'd guess no. 2. Is it against the law for anyone to "have access" to the owner's pistol in the cash register? Not to my knowledge, any more than it is for anyone to "have access" to the owner's pistol in his home. If the owner puts it there, anyone could have access to it, with or without permission. No different than having it "accessible" in the home, as to my knowledge TN, unlike some states, doesn't have a penalty for keeping loaded gun accessible to minors. Doubt if it is a violation until someone picks it up. And of course if used in a good shoot, no other firearm violations can be prosecuted. 3. Though the law doesn't specify difference, don't you think that that the judicial system would see a big diff in an employee having "access" to owner's gun and actually carrying one? Perhaps to make it plain that business location was covered also, as "residence" and even "premises" generally connote personal property, at least in the common usage, and TN statutes are NOT generally written in precise legalese. (refer to "collective intelligence" above). Think I'll just leave it by re-iterating my premise in my previous post. Bugerflipper at McDonalds is reported to police (by manager, customer, fellow worker, etc) as having a gun on him. Cops arrive, and sure enough, the guy has a loaded .38, no HCP. What do you think would happen, both at the scene and/or in court? 1. Cops let him go and he gets to keep loaded pistol on him because he has a right to carry at his place of business. 2. Cops arrest him for unlawful carry and take pistol. If 2, and lesser plea of disturbing peace or something not copped, then: 1. Judge throws out case because bugerflipper had right to carry at his place of business. 2. Bugerflipper convicted of unlawful carry. - OS

Same technique many folks who buy a Rem 870 shottie (and some other brands too) have to do anymore to keep certain shot shells from sticking, especially low brass ones. Many just use some ScotchBrite pad material around a dowel chucked in a drill. (note: I don't know if this is completely safe or not, so don't sue me for a ruined chrome lined AR chamber, but it's a common suggestion on shotgun forums). - OS

Not yet, that we know of. Surely there must be a precedent though, of an employee being arrested for unlawful carry? Maybe not, but seems hard to believe it hasn't happened. Seems it would not be all that uncommon scenario: employee spotted with gun, cops are called, individual does not have HCP, wouldn't the primary logical charge be unlawful carry under 39-17-1307? Again, since I just don't think the "one's place of business" is intended as defense from prosecution for an employee. - OS

Ah, you selectively quote part of the statute to make your stance. Note it does not say "only apply..." It is written that way to be clear that it includes HCP holders also. The first part sentence of 1359 is all inclusive: "(a) (1) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person who is at a meeting conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity." - OS