Oh Shoot

  It is "configured" by simply being in same area. It does not have to be assembled to be in violation. In any of those three examples, if the rifle parts were not present, it is illegal "configuration" just lying side by side.   I just don't see why this seems so unclear to you:   "An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm".   Without the rifle upper in any of those three examples, the stock's only useful purpose would be to make an NFA firearm. And it doesn't have to be actually attached under the ruling.   Would you get busted for it? Likely not as obviously a yes as if you were walking around with stock and short barrel assembled, but it is same violation if they want to use it.   - OS   edit: one more point on that to 'spain further:   ATF says you may use an adjustable carbine tube on an AR pistol, no prob. However, always dependable to only give incomplete answers, it also warns that mere possession of an attachable stock along with it could constitute possession of an illegal SBR.   So, how could this be? Well, it's because if that stock has no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm, then you can be deemed to have done so. Having a legal rifle along with the pistol of course negates that, as you now have a legal useful purpose for the stock.   The main thing the Thompson Decision did -- before it, you could be popped for simply being able to make an  illegal configuration. After it, you are only culpable for only being able to make an illegal configuration. In other words, it's not whether you can make something illegal, but whether you can also make something legal among same array of parts.   Of course, actually physically assembling something in an illegal config did not change.   - OS

Thompson Center parts of course aren't illegal, assuming you have both stock and long barrel in mix at same time. That's what the SCOTUS case was about to begin with. (Note in all three cases the actual "firearm" began life as a handgun, very important) This is perfectly legal grouping of parts: If you were out and about with everything except the long barrel, however, you could be hammered for having a NFA firearm. Exactly same with AR stuff: Or Beretta: Again, all three examples, the firearm began life as a handgun, not a rifle. Firearms that begin life as a rifle must stay a rifle. - OS

  With no other parts in the mix to allow legal use, yep. Wasn't that part of your question in original post?   - OS

Yeah, that's best advice. Ruling goes on to mention "attachable" too, which is also undefined, but since gaffer tape could attach one, I wouldn't bet the farm that any stock designed for that type rifle couldn't be tried against you if they really had an axe to grind. And again, I wouldn't trust "near proximity" to mean any less than anywhere within your total property myself.     Actual SCOTUS case is much too long and convoluted best I remember.  Better to use the BATF ruling that they magnanimously deigned to publish nineteen years after the fact! It is of course not very succinct either, but not too bad.   It "summarizes" both the pistol-to-rifle-to-pistol and the "constructive possession" matters:   http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf   - OS

  I guess mine are about that ... two stage, take up slack to tight, just a tiny bit of creep before decently clean break.   - OS

  Really does seem pert clear to me, no kidding.   look at a part or component, in relation to everything else you possess: - Is there an illegal config I could use this with? - If no, cool. - if yes, then - is there also a legal config I could use this with? - if yes, cool - if no, don't have it   Only real gray area is just how far does "close proximity" extend? I consider anywhere on my property as "close enough".       - OS

  Just happened to know those esoteric points regarding MI law because it is unusual (perhaps even unique?) I certainly don't know such detail about the various states as a whole!   - OS

  MI has a state limit on pistol OAL still, though. Can only be under 26". I don't know if there is actual penalty for violation or whether that only determines its usage for permit carry and/or any hunting regs, or changes its state classification to SBR or AOW or some such, though.   TN also has a definitional statute that says a "handgun" has a barrel under 12 inches. But there is no penalty for having a 12" or more barreled one, and it does not clarify exactly what the state would call it if so. But here, that could only possibly matter as far as the HCP is concerned, since can only carry a "handgun" with HCP, and we don't have any handgun only hunting seasons AFAIK.   MI also measures minimum 26" OAL on folding stock rifles with the stock FOLDED, which is the opposite of federal, which measures with it fully EXTENDED. I don't know if MI applies same to extensible stocks.   - OS

Yuk.   - OS

  Since the SB15 is not a stock, how could it figure into any combination of configurations? Same rules apply as if it wasn't even there. VFG and stock usage have rules, but the SB15 does not.   - OS

  The ATF reasoning was that:   - with VFG it is no longer designed to be shot with one hand, so it's not a handgun - however, is not an AOW either because ATF has used sub 26" as part of the AOW determination of "concealable" for long time, based on part of the SBR definition.   - OS

"Correct", but "incomplete" subject to later rulings after Franklin Armory XO-26 in 2011: Note last question on this page:

Good Lord. Federally: - No federal limit on barrel or overall length for a handgun/pistol - 26" or more legal overall length, not concealed on the person, you may add a vertical forward grip, at which time it becomes a legal "firearm" -- remove the VFG it is a "handgun" again. Doesn't matter what length the barrel is. A muzzle device must be permanently attached to count in OAL. - At no time can you ever have a barrel of less than 16" and a stock at same time -- that is SBR. - A pistol under 26" OAL with a VFG attached is an AOW - to make an AR pistol, you must start with a lower that was not first configured as a rifle. Once a pistol, it may go back and forth between rifle and pistol. If configured first as a rifle, must stay a rifle. Here is my AR pistol configured as a legal firearm. Take the VFG off, it is a handgun. The SIG brace is not a stock. - OS

  Well, yes and no. The actual stock itself is the kicker in these situations. It's not whether it could be used illegally, but whether it can only be used illegally. So yes,   "intent" doesn't figure at all, but no, actual assembly is unnecessary to be in violation either.   "An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm".   And yeah, that's from SCOTUS, not BATF.     - OS

No caliber marking anywhere?

  Cool, I put it in the "to read" folder, will get a round tuit.   - OS

  Appreciate the link, but that does indeed compare murder rate. Which is certainly interesting if we want to compare relative thuggery (which one would be advised to tiptoe around here if at all), but not exactly about what we were discussing.   - OS

Blumenthal. One of the paramount blindly clueless anti-gunners in the US. Close but no cigar.   - OS

I must not have heard some whoosh? - OS

One thing about that study that comes to mind is that a large proportion of citizen self defense shooting occur in the home, while cops are more likely to be firing in public where more people are present, so it might not be an indication of skill and training but just probability, but willing to give it more credence than I did due to your explanation. I guess I've seen it referenced before, but got a link so I can look at it a bit more closely?     Certainly that statement there is verifiability true.   - OS

  C'mon, that's got to be a pretty hinky "stat" at best. All kinds of sampling and definition probs.   - LEOs are like 5,000 times or whatever more likely to even fire a gun in public than "average" citizen. They are probably still 1,000 times or whatever more likely to do so than even people who carry a heater daily   - even if based just on "people who carry guns", no way to know just how many that is, as (1) having a permit does not mean one carries and (2) nobody knows how many people carry legally without a permit around the US   - etc   - OS

  Been a unicorn for last 1.5 years though.   - OS

This from RIO's home page, I don't think anyone has posted this in the other thread, which I can't find now anyway:       "To our loyal Shooters, Fans and Followers:   It is with a heavy heart that the Rio Ammunition family informs you that on Wednesday, April 16th, an accident in our Tennessee facility took from us one of our own. Other members of our team were injured, at least one other seriously. Those injured have received, and to the extent still needed, are getting medical care. We are working closely with regulatory agencies and others to understand the source of this tragic event. We ask that you keep those affected in your thoughts and prayers. We reflect with great pride on the actions of our staff who were not injured to assist those who were. We express appreciation to the professional first responders who answered the call. We would like to thank all of our customers, friends and followers who have reached out with offers of assistance. Your compassion gives us strength beyond words.   While you may have many questions about this event, we respectfully request that you understand the evolving nature of this situation. We hope that you can afford us the time necessary to work through the investigation and to grieve. It will take time and patience, but we will persevere. It is the Rio way."   - OS

  Yeah, but this is allowing an actual, you know, firearm freedom for most everyone, so ya never know, coming from a member of MAIG, oops, I mean, lifetime NRAer.   - OS

  Hell, that should have been the headline. ;)   - OS