Oh Shoot

  Well, not exactly the test case I had in mind. :)   After all, states can have all kinds of more restrictive legislation than federal. Hell, a few states don't even allow SBR at all, so you can't even have one with federal tax stamp.   - OS

  Mine may be the first, just continued with same topic already ongoing:   http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/83504-new-twist-in-the-sig-brace-debate/#entry1231549   - OS

I'd guess that ATF wishes it had simply called these things stocks in the first place, even though they'd get whatever flak from handicapped factions.   Of course, they could have at least required that a "brace" be of some design that nobody in his right mind would choose to try and shoulder in the first place.   - OS

I just think ATF is not going to be able to get around the fact that what makes an SBR an SBR is the the inclusion of a stock with the short barrel or short OAL, and that a stock is what is required for a firearm to be "designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder".   - OS

  Just another example of "doing badly what need not be done at all."  And besides that, it's an non-enacted de facto tax.   - OS

  Hell, any SBR would be cool without stamp,  as long as you put stock on hip or chest instead of shoulder, eh?   - OS

  Yeah, do. Not that a part couldn't possibly be out of spec, but unless somebody dicks with it, would surely be exceedingly rare.   - OS

The KAK "super" (the second version for use with castle nut) has the channel cutout. The original does not, of course, as it is designed to screw all the way in flush to the flange. As a matter of fact, the original is sized exactly for a milspec thick end plate (tab is removed from one from KAK or you have to file it off others), some thicker "tactical" ones won't allow tube to reach the buffer retaining pin, one of the complaints that prompted them to make the traditional castle nut model. - OS

  Well, of course I hope it ain't me that's the test case ;), but I'm all for having this get into the courts ASAP.  And unless they do mass arrests, I imagine the first victim will have plenty of free legal support, all the way to the top if necessary.   I still think the judicial distinction will be exactly what constitutes "intent" to fire from the shoulder as per the USC definiton.  And I believe that will ultimately come down to simply whether there is a stock or not on the firearm, as has always been previously maintained by ATF, who has only been concerned with how a firearm is configured, not how it is used.   I just cannot see the courts ultimately agreeing that how one fires an otherwise legally configured firearm as magically changing its status. Otherwise you're right back to the completely identical argument that firing a pistol with two hands makes it an AOW and similar.   I do believe that the only thing ATF will eventually be able to do is simply to declare all the "braces" as "stocks" to limit how they are used.   - OS

See newest bombshell:   http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/83504-new-twist-in-the-sig-brace-debate/#entry1231549

Well, ole Max has surfaced again, now as acting director of the "Firearms Technology Criminal Branch" with this new "open letter". (oddly undated)   "The pistol stabilizing brace was neither "designed" nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a "redesign" of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.   Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA."   Seems to finally draw a definite line in the sand regarding shoulder firing any brace. Still words written on the wind until someone is prosecuted, but sounds like that may be forthcoming?   http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/FirearmsIndustry/open_letter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces.pdf   - OS

Looks like they're not gonna sell the adapter without a tube. That is KAK's original tube made specifically to fit the SB15. I see you were looking for the SBX brace in Trading. No biggie, but note that it has captive end and is slightly shorter in tube channel and won't quite reach the flanged collar on the tube. Doesn't matter as to functionality, just looks a bit odd to some. I used the second KAK version of same on my AK shown previously, but used the short KAK spacer just to fill the gap. The KAK SB15 tubes are about 1.5" longer than a standard "pistol" buffer tube, which is good on most AK pistol configs if incorrectly used against shoulder as it increases length of pull. The second one is designed to use castle nut, and has the "channel" referred to in the Scorpion description. On an AR, the channel is used to align with the receiver end plate, which does two things: with a carbine tube it aligns it properly to accept an adjustable position stock, and with all tubes it holds the receiver end plate against lower receiver to contain the spring and detente for the rear take down pin. Adjustable stock position carbine buffer tube: Notice the "channel" through threads. Normal end plate looks like this (the "tooth" is what fits in tubes with a "channel". But there are lots of others, usually used for sling attachments of various sorts: None of those factors are really very pertinent to the Scorpion. Anyway, that is all to say, the tube that comes with the adapter might be fine for your purposes, but there are numerous other choices too. Both SIG braces are designed for tubes that are 1.0-1.2" in diameter. But some are slightly larger and the brace can be a bear to get on there, and also will stretch it out so that it may no longer fit a different tube without some tape or something around it or something. The KAK tubes are perfect for fit in that respect. - OS

  Sevierville. Been open, what, maybe 3 or 4 months.   http://www.budsgunshoptn.com/   Pricing not necessarily same as Bud's online though and of course inventory differs.   - OS

While you're waiting, just for yuks, disconnector spring wasn't missing, or in upside down or not seated, was it? (large end goes down into seat on top of trigger) - OS

  Gotcha. So, helping out Mechanically -- Scorpion Buffer Tube adapter -> pig nose -> hinge -> buffer tube. Right?   Same as I did with AK above, but with one additional part, and a better hinge I assume.   - OS

  Since no handgun is a death ray, with 9mm being in the same general ballpark as .45, I simply prefer more bullets being immediately available, and I'd opine the military feels roughly the same way. It's the reason the .30-06 was discontinued and few are issued 7.62 rifles either.   - OS

The Ace receiver block threads straight into an AR15 receiver first, and an end plate would keep it from turning once locked down with castle nut or the thinner nuts they make just for it. (actually this pic has the end plate reversed, seems, as the projecting nub would actually face inward into hole for it in receiver). and the hinge bolts onto it, then of course the buffer tube screws into that. I just didn't know anything about the Scorpion -- but seems it doesn't have threaded AR type receiver extension hole in the rear with the end plate nub cutout also? If not, dunno how this could work, but will let Gordon explain what I'm probably missing. edit for afterthought: He said block goes into "back of receiver", but maybe he meant you would screw the Ace block into your Scorpion buffer tube adapter, however that attaches to the rear of the firearm? But would still need a place for the end plate to grab into, or the base could still turn, seems. I'm lost on it, but I'm sure he can explain what we're not getting. - OS

  I revise my previous statement, looked up my file on results, was mistaken. FMJ needs 2600 fps I believe by general consensus to do it's thing. The few cheapo rounds I did chrono were borderline, and that's measured at muzzle too.  Any NATO spec loading will be much higher, though, and well in the effective velocity.   I found that diff between 16" and 10.5" barrel was about 300 fps.   --------------- AR-15 10.5" barreled pistol vs 16" rifle 3 shot average: Monarch 55gr .223: Rifle: 2929  Pistol: 2611 Wolf WPA 55gr 223: Rifle: 2872  Pistol: 2546 Tula 55gr .223: Rifle: 2843  Pistol: 2612 Federal Bulk 55gr .223: Rifle: 2840  Pistol: 2536 --------------- Again, type of bullet matters a lot. If you're concerned about optimum "lethality", soft point or expanding don't depend on x velocity to work as designed in the way that the FMJ does.   - OS

I wouldn't count out Beretta just yet.   There's quite a track record there, and still lobbying/politics to be played out. The Army of course doesn't get final say on budget stuff either.   For sure there's gonna be a safety and/or decocker on whatever is adopted. Think Glock Butt on a mass scale if not.   - OS

My 10.5" gives over 2600 fps with even Russian steel stuff, (revised, see post below) with full powered 5.56 you're looking at 2750-2800 fps, plenty of velocity for the FMJ to do its thing.   But even with a 7.5" barrel, seems a soft point moving at 2300 or better would be plenty devastating.   - OS

  Right. The adapter I mention would only work with a piston type or blowback AR that doesn't require receiver buffer/spring.   The newest iteration of the Law does allow a single shot to be safely fired from closed position, previous versions would likely trash it if fired closed.   - OS

  Well, only flaw with that argument is that the venue under question is not a " public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place".    I find it significant that "civic center" or "recreational building" or whatever was omitted from that exception. Whether that was by design or accident in the statute's formation, couldn't say, but that building is no more of a "public place" than any other business or city/county/state building that would have to be posted under 1359, and I don't see that the exception would be judged to apply.   - OS

Well, there's your answer about how to get to buffer tube to fit a brace. As far as hinge for folding, pretty limited options without going to some AK type folding stock adapter that requires machining into the receiver, who knows what you'd get into trying to do that with Scorion, but didn't do search, maybe folks have done it. However, one easy way is that there is a common adaptor that goes between tube socket and tube. Sold by several companies but seems it's all the same Chinese product. I bought mine from US Machinegun: http://www.usmachinegun.com/proddetail.php?prod=YGO-ARFLD But turns out it seems to be same thing marketed by UTG for cheaper: http://leapers.com/prod_detail.php?mitem=Accessories%20and%20Parts&itemno=TL-K7FAD01 Only diff is that the UTG/Leaper's one, doesn't seem to come with a castle nut which you really need to lock it down on the male end, no biggie, 4-5 clams. Works "okay". Meaning, it's rock solid side to side, but significant wobble up and down. On the plus side, doesn't seem to matter at all should the brace be misused against the shoulder. There really doesn't seem to be an "inline" better folding adapter anywhere on the market. You can use any buffer tube you like, some are better suited for the SIG braces than others, that's a KAK on mine made specifically for the SB15 brace, but used it with the SBX brace in this case with small spacer. As far as length, "pistol" buffer tubes only come in narrow range of lengths, from ~ 7" to 9.5". You can get more length from end of actual brace by using a couple different spacer type things to extend it off the back of the tube. - OS

  Explain how any building, private, city, county, or state, or combination thereof, can't be posted under 1359?   - OS

  Linked wrong one? "Opinion No. 09-129 Firearms in Public Parks That Have Athletic Fields That are Also Used by Schools"   - OS