RichardR

But ..but ... but ... the Constitution was written by a handful of long-dead, powdered wig wearing, slave owning, caucasion, capitalist, Christian, heterosexual males over 200 yrs ago. That's just crazy to think that their tired old "free Republic principles" would apply in todays modern, multicutural, socialist society!

Agreed, most home invasion scenarios will be decided within a matter of seconds, and although I personally use a shotgun as my "go to" bump in the night stick I sure wouldn't want someone telling me (or passing legislation mandating) that I couldn't use a higher-capacity weapon if I felt the need to do so. Especially if there was some sort of wide-spread unrest, where a homeowner might have to protect themselves &/or their families by fending off hordes of desperate or crazed people (or OH NOES! even hordes of undead or infected zombies!). Meh, IMHO everyone should use whatever they are most comfortable with using, but everyone should also be mindful of the potential of possibly injuring/killing neighbors (regardless of the weapon used) &/or what potential jurors might think if for some reason the shoot is ever prosecuted (again, regardless of what weapon is used), granted protecting your family should come first, but limiting any potential legal trouble in the aftermath should also be taken into serious consideration. With a shotgun, I believe that I have not only the best tool for a limited CQB encounter, but also the best choice to limit over-penetration/neighbor & legal liability /potential prosecution/juror concerns. If need be I'll use my shotgun & sidearm to fight my way to my safe & break out something drum-fed.

Interesting looking bicycle, I wouldn't be able to ride that thing for more than 10 minutes or so before I was so sore I'd be off my feet for 3 days afterwards. I do like my 29" Mongoose mtb, but I had to swap the hard stock seat out for a huge "tractor" style gel foam saddle, looks a little odd but at least I can ride all-day without being in agony the whole time. Anyway congrats on the new bike man, it looks very expensive! Hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy mine!

That was what I thought too, I literally cringed when I saw that part of the video, thinking to myself "you fool! There is no reason to be deceptive at this point!" I understood why he might had wanted to cover his butt by saying that, but IMHO Zimmerman was well within his right to draw his weapon at that point, no reason to say Trayvon grabbed for it first. Even if Trayvon probably did try to keep Zimmerman from shooting him by wrestling for the gun, I *believe* it was Zimmerman who probably went for the weapon first. But if the machine detected no deception during that point of his testimony, than I have to defer to the machine's findings.

We went to Fort Pillow the other day, caught several blue gills, sunfish & breem, not a single large, small mouth or striper though. We still enjoyed the day, but would had enjoyed it more iffin there had been some bass in that lake.

Well I watched his video, where he explained to investigators (at the scene) exactly what happened & I was watching him very closely for the tell-tale signs of deception. IMHO he was very credible up until one part, which I noticed a couple suspicious involuntary body indicators that would indicate a possible attempt on his part for deception, that was during the "struggle for the firearm" specifically the part where Trayvon snatched at it first. Other than that I found his "testimony" to be very credible. If the stress detector passed him though, I'll defer to the machine, which is far more accurate than my simple observation of his video testimony.

Thread drift is inevitible, especially after the OP had fufilled his mission & we're just now "sitting around, shooting the shit" so to speak. Some weapons are definately more punishing in indoor settings without hearing protection, for instance firing an SBR or pistol AR chambered in 5.56 in an enclosed space is sort of like having a flash-bang go off right next to you. Even outdoors I always double up on my hearing protection when shooting them, even with my electronic muffs & foam/gel plugs my ears will still ring for several hours afterwards. I'd NEVER fire one of those indoors, even with doubled up hearing protection.

*drool* very well done man, congrats (and thank you) for/on bringing that old warhorse back to life!

Welcome to TGO Fortnewa, umm I actually don't care for the BDC recticles, I'm more of an Eotech (CQB) & Mildot (ranged work) kind of guy but some folks seem to like them, the actual scopes themselves are decent enough though.

Welcome to TGO Evilmonkey! Glad to see you finally came out of the closet!

I've fired various firearms indoors, most of time we wore hearing protection while inside the shoot houses, but occasionally we had to do them without hearing protection, the worst incident was a .357 mag discharged while inside of a vehicle, no hearing protection, the pressure wave in that tiny enclosed area was almost incapacitiating/disorientating for a few seconds, which is probably why that was included in that training course. Usually however your ears would just ring for a couple of days afterward, same as if you had just attended a rock concert or something, I probably have some hearing loss but I'm not completely deaf, at least not yet.

Meh I like disagreeing on topics in which the people I'm disagreeing with don't resort to calling me names, like homophobe &/or a bigot. I think maybe that's why those sorts of "labels/names" were invented & promoted as the single worst thing a person could ever be, to prevent folks from disagreeing on certain topics, sort of making it a one-sided affair. Regardless of any indisputable facts, or a well spoken/stated personal opinion on one of those sorts of topics, once a person has a racist, bigot, homophobe, etc label slapped on them, they are not only "wrong" but they are also the worstest person in the world. At least when arguing about guns no-one is eventually compared or equated to Hitler... wait, what?

Interesting line of thought Leroy, however I believe that the American people are just as tolerant of tyranny as anywhere else in the world, at any historical period in time. It's just a softer, kinder, more compassionate tyranny, packaged & sold to us under the guise of "fairness, diversity, reparations, public safety, for the children, or most recently ...in the name of homeland security". We started out having a lot of individual freedoms, but they've been traded away, slowly at first, which caused the whiskey rebellion, then a huge chunk before, during & after the civil war, IMHO it's been a quick down-hill slide ever since the individual States were forced at gun-point by the Federal government to do as they were told to do. These days? Our Constitutional protections have literally become the butt of jokes, you honestly think that old piece of parchment will prevent the communists here in the U.S. from doing what they did in the Soviet Union or China? What about in any other number of countries which experienced huge population purges once the communist came into power? I would love for you to be right Leroy, I really really do, unfortunately however I fully expect that the day will eventually come when "reeducation" is the best freedom loving folks like us can hope to be sentenced to.

Okdokie, thanks now we are on the same page. 1.) Increased precision, we are still talking about home defense scenarios right? I'd be my educated presupposition that anyone capable of "scoring a COM hit" with a rifle on a home invader at typical home defense ranges, would also be capable of "scoring a COM hit" on that same target with a shotgun at the same range of distance from the target. Unless of course we are not talking about typical home defense ranges, at which the rifle would definately be a better asset, especially the greater the distance was to the target. 2.) AR's are easier to learn to operate, than pump action shotguns. This will probably come as no surprise, but again I disagree with this assertion, with pump shotguns the procedure is so simplistic that almost anyone, who has never handled one, can figure it out by themselves in a matter of a few minutes. I've seen guys who just bought their first AR's sit & struggle trying to figure out how to charge the darn things, since the charging handle isn't where "its supposed to be" w/regards to other rifles that they've seen/owned..(or what the forward assist button does, etc). Granted neither is acceptable, I personally believe that everyone should train regularly with their defensive weapons until everything about the weapon's operation becomes instinctive, but most folks in my experience already seem to know instinctively that they have to yank the pump back & push it forward again on a pump action shotgun ... 3.) Faster follow up shots. Ya got me there! A semi-auto AR can definately fire more individual cartridges more often/quickly than a pump shotgun can, unless of course we count the # of projectiles being sent down range, because if we count the # of projectiles even a highly trained operator firing a full-auto AR would have difficulty beating an inbred hill-billy with an 8+1 capacity pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. The other more minor points I've already addressed but I think if you are more comfortable with an AR then that is what you should use, I'm not saying that an AR (loaded with fragnible ammo) is a bad or the wrong choice, only that the reasons listed seemed a bit odd.

Your main arguement against using a shotgun, in favor of the AR platform (correct me if I am wrong) was essentially "operator error, ie: short-stroking" of a pump action? With additional "capacity, over-penetration, etc" supportive ancillary arguements? Like I said I was & am kind of distracted with my young one here at the house, so I'm trying to keep up as much as possible.

Welcome to America 2.0, where everything not prohibited, is compulsory.

Maybe he meant "toe women" as in chicks that really, really dig feet? *shrug*

That isn't how it happens. Take a look at Soviet & Chicom examples, these are the "historical blue-prints" that will be followed.

Everyone should train on whatever weapon they intend to use, failure of the operator to do so is the operators, not the weapons fault. Of course this doesn't apply to situations where it is a mixture of both, for instance the homeowner who buys a $40 "Jamming Jenny", takes it home, loads it up & tosses it into their dresser drawer, without ever testing it or learning how to shoot it ..

Meh, you seriously can't expect me to believe that pump-action shotguns are so prone to operator error that they shouldn't be used for home-defense because they are in essence "unreliable". Especially when I have seen no evidence of this myself in the 30+ some odd years that I've been shooting pump shotguns both recreationally & competively? I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, I just haven't ever personally seen it (aside from small children & a frail elderly woman do it that is). I'd go so far in saying that even an otherwise physically fit one-armed man can successfully cycle the action on a pump-action shotgun 99 times out of 100 ...

Folks who willingly donate their organs to help others is one thing, ghoulish doctors who forcefully or sneakingly removing organs from unwilling or unknowing is another. Regardless of any good-intentions, anyone who would do such a thing is no better than & when caught should be treated exactly like the fiendish "corpse eaters" of monster-movie mythology. Opt-out my ass ...

Welp, yanking the pump backwards until it stops & then pushing forward until it stops isn't exactly rocket science, nor does it make the weapon inherently unreliable if the operator is neither mentally &/or physically incapable of operating it. Heck I wasn't even aware that "short-stroking" a pump shot gun was even an issue (at least not for most adults), I've never personally "short stroked" a pump shotgun, at least not that I can ever recall. Anyway I never claimed that 00 buck wouldn't penetrate interior or exterior walls, I just commented that the fired spherical buckshot runs out of energy very quickly while doing so, heck it runs out of energy very quickly even if it doesn't have to spend any of it's energy penetrating anything. But why do you believe that a shotgunner's target have to be standing still @ 40 yards for buckshot to be effective? It's the spread of the pellets that makes shotguns excel at engaging fast moving targets, they literally "cast a net" of hot piercing lead, granted the more pellets that "hit" the more energy that is delivered. Bystanders & backstops are a consideration regardless of what type of firearm that is being fired, but at least with shotguns you don't have to be as worried about anything beyond a couple hundred yards at best, instead of say with a bullet fired from a rifle or a pistol where everything within a couple of miles behind the target could be hit by a stray/errent round! Capacity, as in the # of shots in a weapon's magazine needs to be 30+ or you're going to die ... well than my guess iffin your having to aim & fire more than a pump shot gun is capable of holding in a self/home-defense scenario, you're probably an actor in a Hollywood movie. The vast majority of engagements in "real-life" SD/HD scenarios are typicially a couple of rounds fired at most, I highly doubt anyone but the most determined professional or crazed killer (or even a large pack of either) is going stick around for a prolonged fire-fight. I'm not saying that folks shouldn't be prepared for "the ultimate SHTF shoot-out" scenario, but let's be honest here, it's not very likely. Anyway I'd much rather discuss guns than politics, so thanks!

Agreed for money they are really hard to beat, but for those with a little more scratch budgeted, S&W Model 41's are very exceptional target .22LR semi-auto pistols.

I'm sorry, I must have missed/overlooked it. Tons of stuff going on here at the house today, (my youngest daughter is home for her Spring Break) so I'm sort of distracted. Anyway yea fragnible ammo is good stuff for HD, regular FMJ's though are a no-go around here, too many neighbor houses too close to risk it.

It's not magic, it's physics. Spheres lose velocity/energy much more quickly in flight or when penetrating than a pointed cone shape does, I honestly can't believe anyone of reasonable intelligence would even argue this. Also, "operator error" does not make a weapon any less reliable, seriously wtf? Loading a shotgun (ie slanking a shell into the tube magazine) isn't even remotely difficult, at least not for someone who can actually manage to slide one of their fingers into one of their nostrels. Capacity? Well I guess that depends on how you look at it, is capacity the # of projectiles that can potentially be sent or # of times a trigger can be stroked?, considering a typical 00 buck shell contains 9 pellets & my 590 holds 8+1 shells... that would be 81 projectiles I can send down range before having to reload, or 9 strokes of the trigger. As far as engaging armored targets? I am guessing most homeowners defending themselves from intruders, won't be doing so against armored ones, however a blast of 00 buck to an armored intruders face would probably be very effective if the need ever did arise. As far as effective range? No a shotgun loaded with buckshot isn't "done at 40 yds" granted the larger spread on cheaper flat-wadded, non buffered, non-plated 00 buck would be more likely to wound the target instead of cleanly killing it, however premium stuff like Federal 00 buck w/flight control wad, buffered & plated pellets still pattern tight enough that I have *gasp!* used them outdoors to kill large game animals like whitetails & hogs at their "done distance" many many times. But you do realize most homes do not have rooms/hallways 40 feet from end to end, let alone 40 yards, so why this was injected into a home defense discussion I've no idea. But I would much rather debate/argue gun stuff than gay boyscouts & such, so I guess I'm happy for the change of topic at least *chuckle*.