GLOCKMEISTER

your own TCA answered your question. the part where it says "known to create a substantial risk of causeing death or serious bodily harm". It also says the user of the device has to take "reasonable care is taken to make known to a probable intruder that fact the that it is being used. I think that TCA's intentions here were for security systems, electric fences, and devices of that kind. Both the Taser and chemical agents are known to have caused death and serious bodily harm in the state of Tennessee. They are both listed as a weapon with every police department that Im aware of in their 'Use of Force Continuum'.

Its totally legal for us and everyone else to sell it under the same T.C.A. code. You have read the TCA I referenced earlier, right? Like I explained before, its about officer discretion and intent proven in court. Im sure those good people buying spray from me are using it for lawful dramatic performance or scientific research or keeping it inside their home or business for viewing by the public for exhibition purposes.

Why dont you know your T.C.A., I thought you were still working. I have been out of this for a while and was going by memory, I will however try and expalin it. You may be correct on the baton thing, all I know is years ago we passed legislation that specifically said "valid handgun carry permit", please call John Harris for clarification if needed. We were trying to change it to anyone that is legal to own a firearm, but I didn't know we actually got it changed. Allots happened in the last 15 years. I'm getting older every day, and theres 15 years of HCP and 20 years of TCA clutter in my head. Im sorry but im a little too busy to look all this up, so im going by memory. I think you can still charge anyone with a weapon if, you the officer, believe they are possessing it as a weapon and there isn't a defense specifically defined under the TCA for that item. Right? So Please reference.... TCA 39-17-1302 under prohibited weapons? I think its section A, subsection 8 that says something like "any instrument thats used to inflict serious bodily injury or death that has no common lawful purpose".... Now Tennessee has starting getting away from "common law" and going more codified. The arrest would come simply due to the officers descretion of what he deemed your intent was. So in short you can be charged with it, but its the States burdon to prove you were carry for the purpose of going armed. Btw, the courts here in Tn and many other states have ruled that an undefined defensive instrument isn't "common lawful purpose". It depends on the intent. Now please supply the defense under the TCA for a civilian to carry said Taser/Stun gun or Pepper Spray? If you cant find it, then theres your answer.

Ya'll do realize stun guns and tasers are technically illegal for civilians to carry in Tennessee? The only legal weapons that can be carried are a knife with the blade length of 4in or shorter, a handgun with carry permit, a baton with handgun carry permit and baton certification, or a shotgun or rifle with no round in the chamber in a vehicle. Theres others but ya gotta be a farmer protecting cattle. Technically you cant even carry pepper spray, but most police officers dont enforce a female carrying it. I think thats it... If your going to carry a pepper spray get Freeze +p... its what the police carry.... we have them in small key chains sizes as well, even in pink.

ya'll know that a major gang initiation or promotion requirement is to kill a COP and bring back their "bloody badge".... It would kinda suck if some gang banger thought you were a Cop because your packing like John Wayne and capped your azz... it rarely happens, but what if? And I dont care what kinda training you have or what kinda self proclaimed Rambo you think you are, if someones laying in wait to kill you your at an very big disadvantage! Just something to think about.

we have two rugers sitting at ruger... they have been there for about 4 months. I also have had to send 3 S&W's back that had blown up, and they all took a very long time. So IMHO its a wash in the customer service Dept... im not happy with either one right now.

i agree, 642 is the best way to go.

Im not ashamed of it at all. I just dont give up my element of surprise. I also feel theres no need in anyone knowing my business. I also dont have a complex and feel I should wear a gun to make myself seem more important and someone/something im not. I have had to carry a gun on my person for the better part of 20 years. I have attended some of the, if not the best, tactical schools in the world. I have also dealt with career criminals my whole adult life. So in short heres no way you can accurately gauge my situational awareness or tell me criminals can tell if im carrying or not. Most if not all professionals I know would agree.

MY NEWEST... KAHR ARMS.... JUST ABOUT ANY WITH A POLY FRAME.

this is "feel good" legislation that I dont think is legal. Just an FYI.

the state says you will get it 14 working days from the day it was mailed. They have to issue it to you within 90 days of you making application. I spoke with them this morning about a student thats 5 months out and still hasnt seen hers.

i never open carry unless theres a reason to be in uniform, I really like being a sneaky SOB.

we have several of them.... right now.

Well I agree with Joe on this Rick cant even take down a 1911 by himself. Another for what its worth, Sam's the best I have ever seen with a 1911... Ask Jeff at G&L and he will tell you guys the same thing. If you want a lights out 1911 built give me a call and I'll hook you up with Sam personally. You can save lots of money doing it like this. But if you need one built you better hurry, he's fixing to get covered up and you will have to get in line.

best in this area... im sure you will have a great time.

this is complete and utter BS. If this gun had flaws everyone and their mom wouldnt be trying to copy it. I have used this particular gun in law enforcement applications for many years, and have been a Glock Armorer for over 15 years. Its really pretty simple, if you keep your buger hook off the bang button it wont fire. Period!

when future combat is foreseeable only a fool would give up their element of suprise...

any polymer framed Smith and Wesson... Sigma, SW-99, M&P... because Smith couldnt come out with their own design.... they had to copy/lease it from real gun designers. In the end the SW versions of these guns never appear to be as good as the guns they copied.

bring it by, Ive been a Glock armorer for years... be happy to show ya whatever you need.

he might as well switch partys... IMHO!

well see what happens.... OC vs CC... we honestly shouldnt have to choose. The thing is every day that goes by without incident is just another feather in our hat. I think as long as were polite but firm we will get our point across. His knee jerk decision to post has left a very bad taste in my mouth... put it like this, half my staff went out with their family to eat there tonight. Me and my wife were thining about going there later, but justs couldnt. I fear he's already effected his buisnes, although in a very small way compared to what might come if he decides to go ahead and post.

exactly... unless he has a way to trace IP's he wont know. Btw he hasnt responded to my last email... im still waiting for a reply.

dude... you didnt tell him this was on the net did you?

THANK YOU... We need more written besides me, looks like he's on the ropes on this issue!

I have been emailing him back and forth all day... I'll keep ya'll posted. FYI I think hes about to break. Heres what I sent him. To whom it may concern, I'm writing this with a heavy heart that's full of regret. I have recently been made aware of your decision to place bans on the legal carrying of firearms in your business establishments. I have been a loyal customer and legal carry permit holder for 15 years. I was also a police officer for 10 years. I now feel discriminated against by your place of business. You are alienating close to 300,000 of Tennessee's most law abiding and honest citizens. People that have been patronizing yours as well as other business establishments for over 15 years without any negative incidences. I will not continue to patronize your business as long as any ban exist taking away my legal ability to protect myself and my family. What you might not know or understand is handgun permit holders have to complete and pass background checks to be able to purchase a handgun. Handgun permit holders also have to pass extensive TBI, FBI, Local, and International background checks to be able to legally carry their handguns. In order to pass these background checks they can have NO ALCOHOL related arrests in the last 5-10 years. So were not dealing with a bunch of drunks that's going to break the law. These are the best and most law abiding of our citizens. Like I said this ban cant just be about alcohol because permit holders wont be able to drink. So its really no difference then them carrying in Wendy's or Shoneys like they have been for 15 years! This seems to be about infringing on our constitutional right to "keep and bear arms"... This right might I add was given first by God, then by our Constitution, and finally by our legislature. This issue is also about higher crime and the need for honest citizens to be able to protect themselves. They haven't had a problem in 35 other states, like Georgia and Kentucky with similar legislation and they wont in Tennessee. Have you thought about the liability issues that involve your decision? If permit holders decide not to ban your establishment, by opting out of the state law, are you not opening yourself up to litigation? If a customer had the ways and means in protecting themselves, but couldn't, and you didn't provide adequate security or lighting? Wouldn't you be liable? You wouldn't be if you just followed the letter of the law. Your opting out may open up a larger can of worms. I wonder if those that have been murdered in or around these restaurants had a voice would they agree with your limits on their defense? Let me give you just a few examples off the top of my head. Do you remember or know who Paul Reid is? He's a mass serial killer that preyed on Middle Tennessee Restaurants back in 1997. He was convicted of at least 7 deaths but was suspected of many more. Who can forget the young people killed in the execution-style murders at Bellacino's Pizza here in Nashville back in 2007? Do you remember the robbery and murder of O'Charleys manager Nadir Bahmanziari just last year? How about the latest, stalker and murderer Hank Wise ambushed and killed Ben Goeser at Johnny's Sports Bar, here in Nashville, on April 2, 2009. His widow Nikki was on the Senate floor when they voted to override the Governors veto. What you may not know is Ben and Nikki Goeser had a Handgun Carry Permits but chose to be law abiding citizens and left their firearms in their vehicle. They wanted to carry for protection but legally couldn't and chose to obey the law. They weren't drinking that night, they simply were there for karaoke. They both had extensive firearms training and knew what the stalker Hank Wise looked like. If one of them had been armed Ben would have at least had a chance to live. Instead poor Nikki had to watch her husband get gunned down and murdered by a criminal. She had time to call 911 before shots were fired, so where were the police? Btw, what law stopped Hank Wise from bringing his illegal gun into the bar? Nothing... criminals don't follow rules!!! The legislature gave business owners that don't want to participate in this legal activity the right to opt out by placing legal signage on their business entrances. We as patronizers have the right not to do business with them. Some will post signage banning, but statistics show most wont. They don't want to alienate a certain legal class of citizens. Citizens that have been deemed safe... citizens with $$$$. They realize those persons have been eating in other restaurants like Wendy's and Capt. D's for many years with no problem. They have been eating in your restaurant, but chose to follow the rules. Why now are you so scared they will break them all the sudden? Do you realize how many the chain restaurants that are doing business in those other 35 states elected to not post signs? O'Charleys, Longhorn, Chilies, Logan's... again with so far no problems!!! In closing I have chosen to take my money to those places that will not alienate and discriminate against me. Those places that respect my rights and will allow me the ability to protect myself. Criminals will carry firearms into your business, they always have and nothing you can do will change that. Your actions only limit the law abiding, and make it public knowledge to criminals that no one on the premises can stop them. I hope you reconsider your decision, I really love your food. Phillip Arrington ------------------------- Heres what he sent back... notivce he said he hasnt posted and it seemed he may be rethining the issue a bit. I think we need to keep the emails flowing. Phillip: Thank you for writing us about your position on guns in restaurants. As a gun owner myself, I know the arguments for allowing guns. I received about 150 calls before we decided what to do with most (80-90%) saying that they would not eat with us if we allow guns. I also spoke with several police officers as well. I knew no matter which way we decided, we would lose customers. Also, I knew that 80% of restaurants surveyed were going to post no guns along with shopping malls that have already decided on this issue. This was purely a business decision based on the facts that I had in front of me at the time. I am aware of the liability issues as well. There have been many insurance companies that have told restaurants they are going up on rates or dropping them if they allow guns. This has not happened to us, but we are up for renewal next month, so we will see. I know the screening process people must go through, but unfortunately, I did not hear from many people who wanted guns until after the decision was made. I will consider more of this, and I still have not posted the signs. I understand if you do not want to eat with us, and I really hope you change your mind. I am asking all people to please contact their state representatives and ask them to actually make a decision on guns instead of making restaurants chose. I hope you understand that I do not want to lose a customer, and I have lost sleep over this decision. Regardless of what I choose, I am going to be wrong, and people will be disappointed in us. Again, please help me change this law where the legislature will do the right thing instead of trying to save their chances for re-election by riding the fence. Thank you, Peter Peter Demos President Demos' Restaurants 1119 NW Broad St Murfreesboro TN, 37129 615-225-8797 615-962-9285 (fax) ------------------------------------------ heres my last response to him... Peter, Respectfully I disagree with your reasoning about this issue. I think when its all said and done you will find out that over 90% of the restaurateurs will end up respecting the new law and their customers right to protection. This is what has happened in every other state where this type of legislation exists. None of the big chains are opting out as far as I can tell, why should you? Honestly I think you didn't hear from many permit holders about this issue, because we never dreamed you would make it in this negative way. How many calls/emails have you received since it was publicized? I have been doing research on the Insurance issue. I haven't found any companies that have told their customers their rates would rise or their policies canceled if they simply abide by the law. Again this law is present in 35 other states and this rate/cancellation thing hasn't happened in any of those states. I don't see where this is an issue. You have to look at the big picture. What are you prepared to do to insure my families safety while dining with you or going to and from my vehicle? If something happens are you prepared for the liability or at least the bad press an incident would receive? Can you imagine how the NRA would spin it so out of control? On the legislative issue, they didn't ride the fence. That part of the law has been in effect since 1994. Business owners have always had the right to properly post their businesses to not honor permits. As of right now I'd say 99% honor them. Back in 1994 companies all over, some as big as Wal-Mart, decided they had nothing to fear from law abiding citizens. There were a very few that posted, but after a few months of losing business and seeing there was not a threat they took their signs down. Crime also tripled in some of those businesses when they posted. Blockbuster videos were robbed almost nightly back in 94 until they took their signs down. Criminals stopped robbing them when they realized they were no longer a soft target. Other businesses also couldn't afford to provide adequate security to protect their staffs and customers from these new criminal threats, so they took their signs down too. So in short, the legislature did their job, they passed the law the people wanted. As of right now I honestly hesitate to continue dining with you period because of your knee jerk reaction to this new law. However I will tell you this, if you do decide to respect our constitutional and God given right to protect ourselves, and not post signage, I will be a customer for life. Thanks You, Phillip Arrington Then He said unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. " Luke 22:36