JWKilgore
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Posts posted by JWKilgore
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I'm trying my hand at restoring an old Remington 572 (.22 pump). It's in rough shape; dinged and scraped aluminum action, rusted/pitted barrel, gouged stock, sloppy action. I'm going to smooth and cerama-coat the aluminum parts; sand and cold rust blue the iron parts; and putty and restain the stock. I've already ordered a few screws and parts from Remington and Numrich to replace non-stock/broken/striped parts.
It's not worth anything from a collector's standpoint. I'm just trying this to see if I can and to (hopefully) have a nice gun when I'm finished.
My main concern is the escutcheon that connects the forend (pump handle) to the action bar. The wood of the forend is sound, but the hole around the escutcheon has been "wallered out" as my dad would say. It's got about 1/8" of play all around, so it flops back and forth when you work the action. I don't want to order a replacement forend, but how can I repair it?
I'm thinking about two options:
- Cover one side of the opening with wax paper, pack a putty-style 2-part wood replacement epoxy (like PC Woody) into the hole and let cure. Then drill/sand a new hole for the escutcheon. My worry here is whether the epoxy "ring" can stand up to the impact stress of racking the slide over the years.
- Directly epoxy the escutcheon into the hole in the stock using an ultra-strong gel-style 2-part epoxy. This will make the escutcheon a permanent part of the forend and be ugly, but it will be much stronger. I'll need something to cover the epoxy joint, either a washer or maybe a wood laminate.
Any other ideas or suggestions?
Jason
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Jack Kirkman at Old Hickory Gunsmithing did right by me when repairing a couple of old guns of mine. He's up north in Soddy Daisy.
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....guns don't "just go off" while they are encased in a well made and well fitted holster
This is the most important lesson from this thread.
Pretty much any time you hear of someone having a accidental discharge it's because the gun was in a poor holster (trigger not covered, or else the gun fell out) or else no holster at all.
Incidentally, I do know someone who learned to shoot with an old western-style single-action revolver (one that WOULD fire if you smacked the lowered hammer hard enough) who to this day carries a new hammerless DA LCR with an empty chamber on top.
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He set up a comfortable chair, started a tape recorder going, and waited in ambush. After shooting them from across the room he followed with a contact "finishing" shot to the head. This was NOT self-defense in any form. Even though the teens were far from innocent (they did break into his home and steal stuff multiple times), this was clearly pre-meditated murder.
However, reading the transcripts from the recording almost makes me lean toward an "insanity" plea. The old guy just doesn't seem right in the head.
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My workplace officially prohibits any weapons. No "gun buster" sign so there wouldn't be criminal charges, but it is a firing offense. Other than this one policy I like my job. Going armed has always been a no-no here, but they strengthened the language in The Manual a few years back when they found out one now former employee had been packing while verbally threatening a supervisor.
That said, other than a few token anti-gun liberals, pretty much everyone in my division is pro-gun; men and women, technicians to vice presidents. I'm fairly confident the guy one desk over always has a gun on him, but we all stick to the "don't ask don't tell" policy.
Also, I work in downtown Chattanooga and my kids are in school and active in sports. The list of places I go where guns are prohibited is much longer than where they are allowed. I couldn't walk across the river for lunch because the walking bridge is officially a "park". I couldn't walk across the street to grab food from the group of food trucks because they're set up in a "park". Heck, even the medians of some boulevards are considered "parks". And of course, guns are off-limits at the soccer fields, schools, and playgrounds where I often take my kids.
So now I only carry on my person when traveling. Otherwise my 9mm is in my center console or at home.
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Regardless the reasoning, at shotgun velocities and load mass, relying on a slight difference in pellet size to not do unintended harm through a wall simply compromises stopping power on the intended target.
I'd prefer to know my backstop and what is beyond it, and ensure a positive stop.You misunderstand... I'm not relying on shot size and interior gyp-board walls to protect anyone. My intent is always to aim center mass of bad guy, know what I'm shooting at, know where all friendlies are, and never knowingly shoot toward any friendlies. But I also fully understand that in a middle-of-the-night self defense situation things could go sideways quickly. If that happens I want to give friendlies at a distance as much of a chance as possible while still ensuring a quick stop of the bad guy.
Anyone I'm aiming at will be in the same room as I am, or at most 10-15ft away; even something as small as lead BB will give 12" of penetration in ballistic gelatin (FBI minimum) at those ranges. But after going through a few sheets of gyp-board, a #3B pellet vs. a 00B pellet could be the difference between an innocent having the shot bounce off his skin or death.
That said, your situation may be different. My mom and dad live alone with no near neighbors, and he loads 00B. If I lived in his situation I'm most definitely load at least #1. But I don't, so I load down slightly.
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I have to disagree with you there. If I get to decide the rules before I have a gunfight, sure, I'll take whatever kind of ammo I can find... but life doesn't work that way. #1B or larger, if I'm being forces to use a shotgun for defensive purposes.
And the #3 and #4 buckshot goes through just as much drywall as the larger shot anyway, so basically you give up terminal performance for nothing.
So we disagree. My dad and brother both load 00B in their shotguns, but they live on 80 acres with no neighbors. I live in a subdivision with close neighbors, and I like most of them.
Based on testing #4 still more than meets the FBI minimum of 12" of penetration (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/). But the smaller size will more rapidly lose energy as it travels farther through the air and penetrates walls. Maybe the penetration is 3 interior walls vs. 4, but still it's one less wall.
This actually sounds like an argument over what's the least powerful yet still adequate handgun round. Some say a .22LR is adequate, while others won't carry anything less than a full-power 10mm or .45ACP. Personally, I feel perfectly comfortable with my sub-compact 9mm or even my 5-shot .38Spc.
Just as a further illustration... If you were going hunting for a 150-250lb predator, wouldn't you want the gnarliest load you could muster? For me that's 3" 000 Buck... And at room distances, that won't penetrate appreciably more through building materials than an ounce of compressed fairy dust at the same velocity, but it will put bigger holes in a badguy. If you want reduced penetration in walls, go with .223
If I were going on an outdoor hunt of a predator that size I would use a high-power fast-repeating rifle. The problem with that analogy is that on a predator hunt you usually don't have to worry about things like neighbors and kids. In the real world, at least in MY world, neighbors and kids exist, and I don't want the guilt that would go with killing either. Therefore I pick the minimum shot size that provides adequate killing penetration. No, this doesn't eliminate every possible situation where the shot could over-penetrate and hit an innocent. But it gives the best possible chance at eliminating collateral damage while still adequately taking care of the bad guy.
Doing a bit more internet scouring. Apparently Rio does make a 20 gauge 9-pellet #1Buck shell, but it's not the easiest thing in the world to find.
I had no idea this existed... thanks for the heads-up! I don't see how they fit a 3x3 stack of 0.30" #1 shot inside a 20-ga shell, but there is a long history of incorrectly labeled shot sizes in commercial shells. Maybe it's closer to #1.5B.
25rd box for $15: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/25rds-20-gauge-rio-royal-9-pellet-1-buckshot-ammo
250rd case for $125: http://www.sgammo.com/product/rio/250-round-case-20-gauge-rio-9-pellet-buck-shot-ammo-rb209
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The biggest problem with the 20 gauge is the pitiful buckshot selection. You're pretty much limited to #3Buck, which is marginal at best.
For military and police purposes I agree that #3B is less than ideal. But at inside-the-home distances I say that #3B is more than adequate. And if you live in an area with close neighbors I'd suggest that #3B be the maximum size you use.
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... I have never fired a shotgun before BTW.
I couldn't help but notice this remark, and I think it's key to your decision. It's easy to learn to work a pump, but it's also extremely easy to mess up a pump under high stress. If you don't pull the slide all the way back or push all the way forward you'll have a malfunction. If you do get a pump make sure you devote several cases of low-recoil birdshot toward practicing and developing muscle memory. Also, a lightweight "tactical" pump 12-ga kicks like a mule. If you think you can remember to rack the slide properly after receiving a massive kick (along with deafening roar and blinding fireball) about 15 seconds after waking up from a sound sleep, then go for it.
If you don't have time, location, or funds for this much practice, then consider a reliable semi-auto. Also consider a 20-ga. A semi-auto is no excuse for not practicing, but if you aren't going to practice anyway then at least get something that does some of the work for you. And a 20-ga, especially a semi-auto version, has considerably less kick than a pump 12. As for power, I keep reading that a 20-Ga delivers the same energy as two simultaneous hits from a .44 Magnum (hardly an under powered round, and we're talking TWO of them). When someone looking for a "defense" shotgun says something like "never fired a shotgun before", I always point them toward the [url=http://www.mossberg.com/products/shotguns/mossberg-international-sa-20/sa-20-tactical]Mossberg SA-20[/url]. They run slightly more than a quality pump 12. A pump 20 would be even cheaper.
On the other hand, 20-ga ammo is slightly more expensive, so if you DO plan on shooting a lot then stick with the 12.
Ammo selection isn't as critical with the shotgun as it is with other systems. Basically buckshot in #1, 0, 00, or 000 will do a very effective job of stopping threats. Anything smaller will not reliably achieve the penetration into a human target necessary to stop a threat. #4 buck is pretty marginal, IMHO stick with #1 or larger. Reduced recoil loads are beneficial.. you give up practically nothing in performance and get faster follow up shots. Pattern your load of choice at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. You need to know where the pellets are going to go at each of those distances. Maybe stretch it out to 40 or so if you have the room.
Birdshot is for practice (you should buy and shoot a lot of it), 3-gun matches (if you do that sorta thing) and, well, birds. It has no place in an anti-personnel role. None. Absolutely none. The only legitimate reason for using birdshot against people is if you don't have anything else.
Ammo choice depends on where you live, and where you plan on shooting. The military's go-to shell is 00 buck because they often engage at longer distances (larger pellets carry more energy for longer distances), through barriers (foliage, doors, etc.), and they don't get fired or sued if a few pellets penetrate too far and cause "collateral damage". Many domestic police agencies have switched to #1 buck. With more pellets with suitable penetration, this size causes more damage than 00, plus the smaller pellets are less likely to keep going and kill bystanders. Smaller pellets like #4 don't work well at outdoor distances in military or police situations.
If you're out on the ranch and plan on engaging enemies outside (or you are stocking massive quantities of cheap ammo for the zombie apocalypse where you don't have to worry about lawsuits), then go with military 00 with slugs in a side-saddle. But if you don't plan on leaving your yard in a defensive scenario, then you'll never need anything larger than #1. At typical max indoor ranges, #4 is perfectly suitable, even with heavy clothing. If you live in an area surrounded by other houses consider #3 buck to be the max shot size. If you live in an apartment complex where the only thing separating you from your neighbors is a couple of Sheetrock walls, or in a house where friendlies (i.e., kids) may nor may not be where you think they are in the middle of the night, then I HIGHLY recommend dropping down to lead BB or even #2 tungsten bird shot. Yes, the statement, "bird shot is for birds, not bad guys" is valid, but when most people think "bird shot" they're thinking dove or rabbit load, which IS completely unsuitable. And while even the larger bird shot sizes may not meet FBI 12" penetration criteria, at across-the-room distances a bad guy would have a very hard time standing after absorbing a full load of 0.15" #2 pellets.
Penetration Testing with various shot loads: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/
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Clearly, the authors of this survey did not take into account the "redneck factor."
This. I don't care if they are perfectly fit and regularly play paintball, city folk are doomed from the start. What good is being able to run a marathon when the food distribution network collapses, Whole Foods is ransacked, and you are surrounded by a half-million creatures either competing with you for supplies or trying to eat you?
The redneck with a supply of duct tape, WD-40, canned food, a garden, and a mini-arsenal has a much better chance of long-term survival.
About the obesity rankings, I think that's a good thing for us. In the fitter states you'll have faster zombies, here, you'll have bubba waddling around looking for gravy to put on his brains. Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
This is an awesome observation. :rofl:
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I love my single shot .410! Seriously, old Sears & Roebuck .410 bolt action, not very valuable but worth a fortune to me as it was from a very close family member.
Cool... I thought I was the only one with one of these left over from my childhood. My 8-yr-old used it to shoot at skeet a few times last fall, but the extremely tight choke was too much of a handicap. My brother's shorter barrel cylinder-bore break-action .410 was much more suited to the skill level.
The standard go-to shotgun caliber for the military is 00 Buck, but they need the longer range and penetration of the larger shot. Recent studies say that #1 is the better choice for closer ranges, and lots of LE agencies are switching. As for me, based on the data from these tests, the fact that I live in a subdivision with relatively close neighbors, and I have kids in the house 50% of the time who may or may not be in their bed in the middle of the night, I can't imagine putting anything with as much penetrating potential as 00 Buck into an in-home self-defense shotgun. Slugs aren't even the remotest consideration. My go-to is #2 Lead Bird shot or lead-free BB shot in a 12-ga for all but the last shell, which is #4 buck. The wife's 20-ga gets #4 Federal "Personal Defense" buckshot because if she is armed it means she's either at home alone or is backing me up.
If I ever change situations such that I don't have to worry about wall penetration I'll switch to #1 buck for in-home defense.
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That's true of many (ahem...) of us. But it won't seem like that when we go for several days at a time without eating. My Dad is obese, but when he has to fast overnight for a blood test or something like that, he acts like he's starving to death. I've sort of gotten myself accustomed to intermittent fasting, but it is still a challenge sometimes. It's much easier to cut down on calories gradually and get used to it. For that, we need food stores.
Will
This applies to me as well (I'm not skinny), but there's a huge span between not dying of starvation and having enough energy to function in an emergency scenario. I know that if my sugar drops after a period of not eating I have some loss of physical and mental capabilities. Yes, even without food my body will adapt and I will be functional again, but this takes time that I may not have. As CS said, it's much better to slowly taper off than be forced to quit cold.
Yes, if you train for this you should be good, but how many normal (non military) people actually train to handle emergency situations without eating for days? Even if you're in reasonable shape, one sudden burst of adrenaline to use up immediate blood sugar without being able to recharge will leave you in a bad situation.
Also, I realize the OP is talking about a simple "sorry, the faucet doesn't work anymore" scenario, but some of the other posts have crossed over into general survival.
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Zombies aren't real.... yet.
5 Scientific Reasons the Zombie Apocalypse Could Actually Happen Humorous (cracked.com), but based on real theoretical science.
How a Zombie Outbreak Could Happen in Real Life Breaks down the science of a "slow zombie" possibility
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The class I took had nothing to do with any form of training in how to use a firearm. There was zero training on what to do during an actual shooting. As long as you didn't shoot yourself or anyone else and put most of your bullets on the paper you passed the "firearm proficiency" part. And anyone with any reasonable amount of common sense should be able to pass the written test even if they went in cold.
But the instructor did cover quite a bit of ground on when you can use a firearm (and when you can't) . About the importance or real training and proficiency. About what can happen if you shoot without knowing where the bullet is going. About what to do after a shooting. What locations were off limits to carry. How bullets can penetrate through most walls and furniture as if they aren't there.
Two things he said stuck with me:
"If you don't know where you are aiming when you pull the trigger, the bullet will always land in a police evidence bag."
"If you decide to use your weapon to defend something, whatever you are defending had better be worth everything you own. Because you might have to sell everything you own to pay a defense attorney." (Think Zimmerman) A purse or a vehicle isn't worth it.
I know people who say they'll shoot in situations that either they would either get them arrested or dead. Things like shooting at people trespassing on their property or even people running away after stealing something. Situations that were clearly discussed in the class as being NOT a valid times to shoot.
As for the cost of the class, that's set by the instructor and not the state. Different places around here have different rates.
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What satalac said. I'm pretty sure no one ever wrote down what weapon I used for my test, and I took the target home with me. Later I lost it in a move. I think the instructor wrote down 97% as my score even though I don't remember any misses.
I did use my first carry gun (.38 special snub) for the shooting, but I don't recommend doing that. For one, you have to shoot in 6-shot groups but a J-frame only holds 5 rounds. I had to shoot 5, then load and shoot 1.
If I were to do it again I would use a .22LR because of simple economics. Fifty rounds of .22LR costs less than $5. Fifty rounds of .38 Spcl costs significantly more.
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I've been researching it, and the barrel is screwed into the receiver on this gun. I would need a barrel vise, receiver wrench, and masking tape. I could make both of the tools (vise - two metal bars, two large bolts, two bolts to anchor to a bench, hardwood block split in two with hole slightly smaller than the barrel, rosin; and the wrench - long flat bar for leverage, short flat bar, two bolts), or buy them. But as I don't plan on making a habit of pulling them apart very often I'm thinking the best/cheapest option will probably be to pay a gunsmith for 15 minutes of time to pull them apart then put then back together when I'm done.
As for lining them up, you would need to scribe a reference mark on the underside or barrel and receiver (eventually hidden by the forestock) that you would use to line everything back up when putting them back together.
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Excellent information! Thank you!
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I have an old Marlin 30A that needs rebluing (my brother borrowed it years ago and it came back in less-than-perfect condition). I talked to a local gunsmith who does slow rust bluing, but the price he quoted was almost as much as the gun is worth. But recently I spoke to someone who has rust-blued a gun, and he said it's an easy process that just takes a lot of time. That I can handle. A review of Youtube videos confirms this, so now I want to do it again.
I can easily completely disassemble the entire gun, with the exception of separating the barrel from the receiver. I've never tried this. Is a non-gunsmith capable of separating those two parts in a garage? I have a bench vise and an assortment of tools, but no gun vise. Is this separation even needed, or is it possible to rust-blue this gun with the barrel and receiver attached?
Thanks,
Jason
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What are some good places online to order obsolete parts? I've used Numrich before, but they didn't have some of the parts I need.
I borrowed my dad's old Glenfield 75 last week, and he said I could keep it for a while. It's the short/carbine version of the Marlin 60 with a 10rd tube mag. After cleaning 40+ years of powder, lead, and gummed up WD40 out of the action it shot perfectly. But it has some problems. A few missing pieces, other pieces that aren't original, a broken stock, and a bent outer tube in the magazine. I want to fix it up for him.
Thanks,
Jason
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I've hunted deer with a Marlin 30A 30-30 for 25+ years, and I still love the gun.
If I were to buy another lever I'd waffle between a .357 (to match my one revolver) or a .44 magnum. The .357 doesn't really fill any sort of hole in my gun collection, just the factor of having long and short guns that shoot the same bullets. My first "real" deer gun was my dad's Ruger .44 Carbine semi-auto. I'll fight my brother for that one some day. It doesn't have the range of the 30-30, but blows through brush and hits hard at short ranges. I've never hunted hogs, but I imagine a .44 would be an excellent cartridge choice in a carbine.
If I got a lever .44 I would eventually cut it down to 16" and thread the end for an Osprey .45ACP silencer.
My father-in-law really likes his Remington Model 7 in .35 Rem. It has the range of the 30-30 with extra diameter and energy, still with moderate recoil. It combines the best aspects from the .44 Mag and the 30-30.
But ultimately, if I were to be allowed to own only one levergun meeting your criteria it would be a Marlin 30-30.
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I really like having my topographic map book of TN for finding them out of the way places and alternate routes. I'm always lookin' for outta the way fishin' holes, so it's a great water finder, too.
I second this. I've used GPS systems ever since Clinton opened up the satellites (blue-tooth GPS receiver connected to Dell Axim "palm pilot"... remember those?). But one time I lost my receiver in North Carolina and still had a few hundred miles to drive with no paper map. A stop at a gas station fixed that, but ever since then I start every major trip by putting a Rand McNally Highway atlas and Delorme topo atlases for every state I'll be hitting into a carrying case between the seat and the console. It's saved me countless times. I now use a smart phone for primary navigation, but there are still millions of square miles without cellular data signals, batteries die, and charging cables break. But a paper map is always ready for use.
Delorme Atlas & Gazatteers are about $20 individually, or $15 if you buy in 5-state sets. http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=10097
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Doesn’t have to be in a lock box, just locked in the vehicle out of sight. That is, if you decide to go into a store that is posted.
Of course I haven’t seen many store parking lots posted, so this changes nothing for most stores.All CBL properties are fully posted. The "No Guns" signs at the Hamilton Place Mall in Chattanooga are actually on the roads leading into the parking area, effectively posting a few miles of private roads. There are no signs at the doors. I'm not sure it's fully legal or enforceable, but the signs are there.
1313 effectively nullifies the signs... except...
My main problem with the law is that it requires that the name on the vehicle's title and the permit holder be the same. In other words, if you're driving a car solely titled to your spouse (or your brother, or a friend) or driving a rental car, then 1313 does not apply. It's legal for me to stash my carry pistol in the glove box of my personal vehicle before parking at my son's elementary school to go inside. It's illegal for me to do the same with a rental car.
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That is why I said AR pistol, to avoid being hammered if you are caught with it in the trunk. A PISTOL in the trunk with a HCP should go a LONG way toward shutting down any excited LEOs, esp if you play nice when they start asking questions. The carbines and rifles are NOT legal on a HCP and would be a little harder to dismiss. Still legal to own, but you would want to transport those unloaded rather than ready to go, just in case. In the trunk, unloaded, in a state like TN, if you keep your attitude positive and friendly you won't get burned for a rifle either.
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Do take a look at all of kel-tec's long arms. They have some interesting hardware, unlike most anything else on the market, they like to design stuff.
If you have a HCP you may transport a loaded long gun as long as there is no round in the chamber. Tenn. Code Ann. §39-17-1307 (e)(1)
In my opinion, anyone who regularly carries any form of firearm in TN should be a HCP. Unless you don't want your name in yet another government database.
A regular cab truck is easy... just keep a "truck gun" secured behind the seat. IMO it's harder to conceal/secure a weapon in an SUV because everything is exposed. My 4WD 4Runner would make an excellent "bug home" vehicle, but there are no good hiding places for a long gun.
A lever-carbine with a matching revolver in .357 mag is one choice, and few cops would give either a second glance. The most ultra reliable choice, but slow reloads.
Or the carry handgun of your choice along with an old pump shotgun. Heavy up-close damage, but bulky ammo and slow reloads. Most country folk in my home state have one of these behind the seat.
Another would be the already mentioned Keltec Sub-2000 (folds to 16" closed) sharing mags with a 9mm or .40 Glock, S&W, Sig, or Beretta. Much more firepower than the above two, but weaker long-range power.
A Keltec 16C in 5.56 can be folded to 25.5", can be fired as a pistol or rifle, takes standard AR mags, weighs 4.7lbs loaded (30 rds), and has a threaded barrel. This could be the most ideal "bug home" gun possible if you like Keltec products.
A carbine-length AR in 5.56 is kinda valuable to be leaving in a vehicle all the time, and would be "scary looking" to the wrong person, but it does have lots of accurate firepower in a lightweight package. A suppressed model in .300BLK has major stealth advantages, but is even MORE expensive and you'll have almost zero chance of finding spare ammo along the trek.
A cut-down SKS or AK platform would be less valuable than an AR with slightly more powerful ammo at a loss of long-range accuracy.
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If it was me, I would probably go for a little nicer gun for the 22lr that will stand the test of time from a pure quality/looks perspective. I don't think there is a better value out there for this type of gun than a CZ 452. I am not saying the Savage isn't a good gun, it is. It will shoot the same as the CZ, but it will never compete in the fit, finish, and looks categories, which for me is a requirement if this is to be their first gun that they will keep forever.
I would start there and let them pick there next guns. Let them research calibers and learn about them. There are a lot of options out there.
In general for me, plastic and laminate doesn't equate to heirloom. Find a CZ 452 American, Trainer, or Lux and keep it forever.
This is what I was looking for, other options, or else point out flaws in my plan. All I knew about CZ before now is they made military/LE rifles; I didn't know know they made hunting rifles, and at first look they look promising. I'll have to find one in a store to look at in person.
Also, I wasn't looking for "heirloom" level rifles, more "as indestructible as possible", at least for the first two. Get a regular-size stainless barrel and receiver and put a youth-sized plastic stock. After they're older switch out to a nicer wood stock. I'm looking for stainless because every blued one from my childhood is in pretty rough shape (especially after my brother got through with them).
What do you think about this ?
in Handgun Carry and Self Defense
Posted
This is a biometric sensor on a separate trigger lock, not on the gun itself. I see no difference between this and a biometric lock on a "quick-access" gun safe.