Timestepper

In the course of nearly a quarter century as a truck driver, I have constantly been bombarded with THINK SAFETY slogans in the form of signs, posters, etc... and so, a few years back, when a company Safety Director asked what I, as a driver, would change about the safety program, this is what I told him: "First off, I'd get rid of all this "THINK SAFETY" bullcrap." He raised an eyebrow and so I elaborated; "Safety isn't something you should have to think about. It ought to be as natural and automatic as tying your shoes or brushing your teeth or any one of a couple of dozen other daily functions that we do without thought. It may just be a matter of semantics, but if you change the signs to LIVE SAFETY, they'd make more sense to me. "If you LIVE safety, then you don't have to think about whether or not to watch where you're walking or whether or not it's safe to pull away from a stop sign or whether your speed is too great to negotiate a curve, ad infinitum, ad nauseum... It takes personal integrity and dedication, but in the end the results are better." A week later, all of our THINK SAFETY posters had been removed and replaced with LIVE SAFETY and the ongoing safety program was geared to that approach. And within 6 months our DOT safety rating had improved by 25%. Seems to me that this should apply, not just to driving a commercial motor vehicle, but to every aspect of our lives... Especially where guns are involved. Then again, I realize that not everyone is going to accept the necessity or even validity of what I've just typed. But, like Ron White said, "You can't fix stupid." Too damn bad, huh? Great thread! ...TS...

I'll leave the real answer to DaveTN, but common sense would dictate that no, it does not negate your right to request they stop the search at that point, but probably would negate the "consensual search" aspect since they apparently now have probable cause to continue the search.

Several years ago in a small town near where I lived in Kansas, I was red lighted by the local police Chief immediately after leaving the convenience store early one morning. I was thinking WTF?!! while he was walking to my pickup, but I rolled down the window and said "Morning, Don! Did I do something wrong?" He replied "Mr. M******, do you still drink Miller beer?" Still completely confused and befuddled, I allowed as to how yes, I didn't mind cracking one open on occasion - if I wasn't going to be driving. He smiled and said, "Oh, I'm not accusing you of anything - I stopped some kids on Main Street a couple of hours ago and took away their beer and sent 'em home... It was Miller Highlife. I didn't want to just pour it out and the only two people I know around here who drink Miller is you and Ray Schulty and I didn't want to drive all the way out to his place just to give him a six pack, so when I saw you I thought I'd see you wanted it." I breathed a HUGE sigh of relief and said, "Well heck yeah - can't turn down free beer! Especially from the Chief of Police!" He said, "Come on back to the car and get it. You can put it in your tool box until you cross the county line." ...TS...

Yes, you are correct. No, I am not saying that saying yes is the only way to be courteous. Not better, just have a different approach. By being polite and offering to turn the yard light on, it ensures that they will be under my constant surveillance the entire time they are on my property. Plus, given the reasonably serious gastro-intestinal issues I've been fighting for the past few years, as a Christian, my conscience wouldn't allow me to deny anybody access to the sh*t house. I was about to agree to and concede your point until I read your last statement in this particular post, which negates this particular comment since you completely disregard my earlier point as to the nature of the thread. But they also never actually said yes, either. Correct? Our language is wonderful - it gives us so many different ways to communicate our intentions or lack thereof. Not at all. By asking to see your I.D., the officer is not asking if he/she may personally commit a physical assault upon you. On the other hand, if you, Fallguy, consider a simple request for I.D. as a personal physical assault, then by all means feel free to resist in any manner you deem necessary. Again, I was never talking about vehicle, personal, home, etc... searches. Those are your words. To clarify: Using your own words from elsewhere in this thread: (Paraphrasing) "If I'm standing on a sidewalk and engaged in a casual conversation with a LEO and he suddenly asks to see my I.D...." Then I (Timestepper) probably will question him as to what grounds before I surrender said I.D. and/or "walk away" without complying to the request. And for the same reason that I wouldn't suddenly agree to confess to a Catholic Priest when all we were doing initially was talking about the weather. If, on the other hand I'm in any other given situation/interaction with a LEO and my I.D. is requested then I will immediately capitulate. It'll take all of 30 seconds and I'll be on my way much sooner than the person who flat out refuses and potentially gets into the whole "Why, you got something to hide?" "No Officer, I just don't believe you have the right to ask for my I.D. without due cause." scenario. Simply because I don't see it as my job to tell them how to do their job. Again Fallguy, unless you've completely misunderstood/deliberately misconstrued the point I've been trying to make, then I still agree to disagree. And my apologies for not answering this particular post last night. Between a glitching computer and tired eyes, it just wasn't practical. ...TS...

And idiots... Shidiots!

Yes. A bus is indeed a commercial motor vehicle. They just have slightly different rules to follow than us truckers (and with obvious reason). For instance, in most states buses are not required to stop at Weigh & Inspection Station/Port of Entry facilities which would explain the "TSA involvement at bus stations." ...TS...

With the coming of cooler weather, my wife has designed, and is starting to make sweaters for the occutards - it's called an occutardigan... it has no head hole.

Believe my wife's birthday present next Saturday will be to take her to ETO to sit in on some of the demos.

I've heard that phrase defined two ways: 1. It's obvious we're at loggerheads and I respect you too much to press the point any further at the risk of damaging our friendship. & The other definition probably remains better left un-typed. Not so rhetorical answer: The alternative is that one party or other concedes the point, usually because he/she determines to his/her own satisfaction that their own viewpoint is flawed either due to perspective or lack of facts. ...TS...

Indeed. And we each have different ways of doing that.

Is that Police brutality or inappropriate physical contact by an officer? Wonder if he asked for his I.D. first?

Afterburner with Bill Whittle

I hate to beat a dead horse, but again, you missed my point. I like beer, but in this metaphor it is only an option if life gave you hops and barley. Cheers nonetheless. As to the rest of it, I suppose that we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. There are those here who seem to see being asked for (and producing) I.D. as a most egregious sin which will inevitably lead to even more egregious sins. I don't see it as anything more than a temporary inconvenience at worst and the chance to make someone's day a little easier at best. BTW, my mother lives in Parsons, Kansas. ...TS....

Trapped all through high school and for a while in my 20's. Right now, I have the same problem you have, only I'm trying to keep the damn 'coons and possums out of my garbage and hen house. Still have half a dozen leg hold traps and a couple of Conibears to that end. Got a pair of foxes that visit every now and then that I'll probably try for in late December, early January. Also have bobcats on our ridge, but so far they've left us alone. Good luck! ...TS...

Indeed. If life hands you lemons, you have the choice to make lemonade. If life hands me lemons, I'm going to choose to find someone who's life handed them vodka and have a party.

I've dealt with hundreds of LEO's over the years while driving a truck through all 48 states and Canada. In almost every case, I was better served by just respectfully complying with the requests that have been made upon me, rather than respectfully declining to consent to said request. If you choose not to do so, by all means feel free to exercise your rights. While you're exercising them, I'll be on my way and we'll both be happy.

Apples and oranges. While I agree with your earlier statement that a right not exercised is a right lost, I also believe that I'm not so freakin' important that I can't take the time to dig some I.D. out of my wallet and show it to him. What's it take, a whole half a minute? Next you'll be arguing that bars don't have the right to request to see I.D. before serving someone alcohol. When I was in my 20's I was offended every time I got carded. When I was in my 30's, I was incredulous. In my 40's, I was amused. Now that I'm in my 50's, I'm flattered.

It's called common courtesy. LEO's have a job to do and we all want them to do it to the best of their ability without screwing up... EVER. But if an officer has had a tough day and inadvertently & temporarily forgets to mentally enumerate every single right of every single individual and makes a simple request in the process of doing his/her job to the best of his/her ability, who's to profit by telling them how to do their job and reminding them of what rights you have? True, you have the right to respectfully refuse to obey an unlawful request, but come on - is it really that big of a freakin' deal? Let's put the shoe on the other foot: You're in a hurry and you go out to find that someone has inadvertently parked you in. Your kid needs new shoes or you just found out that your wife is having an affair with mailman and you need to find a condolence card for him, or maybe you're late for something really important, like a round of golf or getting your chest waxed. Whatever it is , you discover that you've been blocked in. Now, whoever blocked you is legally parked, but you still can't get your car out and you really need to hit the road in a big, big hurry. So you find the inadvertent transgressor and politely request that they move their car. Most normal folks would willingly oblige, BUT you find, in this instance, that the aforementioned individual has decided to exercise their right NOT to move a legally parked automobile just so you can have a better day. What kind of syllables are you going to be uttering under your breath while you're waiting for them to get around to leaving on their own? Common courtesy. We have the right to respectfully refuse to comply with an unlawful request from a LEO. But we also have the ability to temporarily choose not to exercise that right in order to make someone's day go just a little smoother. And all it takes is a smile and a "Sure Officer! It's in my wallet, let me dig it out." ...TS...

Excellent point. I think too many people <everywhere> carry for the wrong reasons. Some carry because they want to prove what a tough guy they are. Others because they're scared and they think if they get a gun and a permit to carry it they won't be scared anymore, when - in reality - what they are is still scared, only now they're armed. Personally, I learned a long time ago that I don't have to prove a damn thing to anybody... and I wasn't scared before I ever had a gun. As I've mentioned elsewhere in these forums, I'm a truck driver. I've never carried a gun in the truck and I've gone into some pretty rough and seedy areas in the past 23 years and never had any problems that I couldn't handle. Maybe it's because of the way I comport myself, maybe it's because I'm so ugly and look so terminally broke that would-be robbers don't feel I'd be worth their time or maybe it's because I'm just too damn dumb to be scared. The reason doesn't matter so much as the fact that that's just the way it is. I don't plan on going anywhere with a gun that I wouldn't go without a gun, I just plan on going there legally. And since my home state of Kansas is OC unless you first obtain a CC permit (and I OC'd in Kansas for 25 years before I moved to East Tennessee), OC is what I'm most comfortable with. And I personally don't give two hoots in hell if a LEO has the lawful right to ask for my I.D., D.L. and/or HCP without first giving me a valid reason for asking - I'm going to show it to them. I might ask "Why?" afterwords, but for right now, I'm going to smile and say, "Sure, Officer. It's in my wallet, let me dig it out." Because it is indeed true that you can catch a helluva' lot more bees with honey than you can with vinegar. ...TS...

Q: Banjo picker and guitar player both jump off a 10 story building at the same time, who's gonna' hit the ground first? A: The guitar player, because the banjo picker is gonna' have to stop and tune up on the way down.

So when an LEO asks if you have any ID, just look 'em in the eye and say, "'Bout what?" (Hey, it works in Arkansas and Alabama...)

Go back to using a flip phone and you won't have to worry about it. Casio makes one for Verizon that's virtually indestructible - had mine for 2 1/2 years now and abused the hell out of it and it's still going strong despite being dropped, kicked and submerged in the Clinch River for extended periods while trout fishing - plus it picks up & retains a signal better than any phone I've ever owned. Otherwise... good luck! ...TS...

Both. The 20ga will be loaded with slugs, the .357 with Magtech 158gr fmjfp.

Nope. Had mine for more than 25 years. Been offered more than ten times what I paid for it and wouldn't part with it for ten times that much. Gotta' be my favorite long gun of all time.

Been wondering about that myself.