TMF

Mid-Length vs. Carbine? I can't speak intelligently enough on that one. I have nothing but carbine length systems and have never had an issue cycling any ammo. Spike's vs. RRA? I actually have both right now. I've had my RRA for a long time and the Spike's is relatively new and will be finding a new home in about 5 months. They both go bang every time and all the parts fit the way they're supposed to. I just prefer my RRA because I find the Spikes logo to be a little gawdy the way it is stamped on the receiver. My predjudice is nothing more than cosmetic. I think they're equally as good of rifles... go with whatever saves you money.

That's what "they" want you to think!

I used to carry my Kimber compact (4") all the time. It's very manageable and easy to conceal and still has a full size "feel" to it. I was going to go with an sub compact, but I shot a buddy's in a different brand and my hands were just too big to get a comfortable grip for me. I have chimp fingers so it wasn't right for me.

We do know that there was a third party that witnessed the event and that they called 911. What they saw has yet to be revealed. As to the truthiness of the report of them pulling their weapons, I guess you're right, it is an unsubstantiated accusation. I'm making the assumption that weapons were pulled due to the manner in which the story was reported; it's easier to believe that there were weapons pulled since I'm certain the alleged victim wouldn't know that they were armed unless he saw the weapons. If it is all an elaborate fabrication than I would expect to see severe charges brought against the alleged victim for false reporting and such. But yes, it remains an allegation.

I'll admit, I'm forming opinions here in a vacuum due to the way the story smells, but if we focus on the facts once they come out it will be fairly clear whether or not they committed a crime: Fact: Weapon(s) were pulled by one or more of the officers. Fact: There is a third party witness that also reported the incident. Fact: Both officers were not in uniform and were traveling in a POV. Critical Unknown: Were the police officers on duty? Critical Unknown: What did the alleged victim do to provoke the officers' actions? Those last two unknowns will justify or criminalize the officers' actions. Hopefully those facts will come out in the near future, but I guess if the DA chooses not to do anything about it we'll never know until the civil suit.

I'm pretty sure if a police officer commits a felony he'll get the bracelets put on him if it's witnessed. I'm going to an extreme to prove my point, but if an officer rapes someone in the middle of the shift they're not going to wait until he clocks out to arrest him.

Oh yeah, you'll need that too, but only if you want to be accurate.

Yep, that's all you need, just put the two together. Just make sure that the upper comes with a bolt carrier group and charging handle. It says it does in the description but double check that when you're checking out. I'm assuming your reason for purchasing these two items separate is because there isn't an assembled rifle available with the options your want? You may want to check the gun shops in your area before purchasing the lower as well. You might get a better deal and you don't have to pay for shipping. If you purchase the lower online some gun shops won't do the transfer for you if they have the item in stock, so be sure to check with FFLs in your area before purchasing so you know where to send it or not send it. The upper can be sent to your home since it isn't considered a firearm.

Hahaha! In line with what you're suggesting, I've always said that to suggest our government is capable of conspiring on such vast levels is to suggest that our government is somehow competent and effecient. The worlds most technically advanced and well trained intelligence agency is within our borders and can't go a week without getting a source burned on CNN.

If you're set on getting a Kimber and this one falls through there's usually one or two for sale every week here. Getting a used one is just as good as getting a new one IMO, especially if you can get a good deal. It's gonna get used eventually anyway.

California. Why do we still pretend that it is not it's own socialist country?

Most law enforcement agencies have been doing this for a long time. In fact, there was a recent story about a suspect in the DC area that was arrested after he posted pics of himself on Facebook which gave police a description of what he was wearing and the area he was in. The PD regularly generated "social media" reports for suspects or folks with warrants on them. I'm certain that just about every major LE agency does this. It's using open source data to collect intel. While the tactic does seem a little on the edge, it isn't violating any rights. If I wanted to come to this site and search certain keywords which might take me to "anti-gov't" posts I can do that. Same with FB or Jihadi sites. I guess the concern would be being put on some kind of list that is transferrable across agencies, but if such a thing exists or will exist we'll most likely not know until it gets leaked to the press or the ACLU gets wind of it.

It still hasn't been said whether or not they were on duty. I would say it's safe to assume they weren't. If that is the case they should be no different than any other citizen in regards to legalities surrounding presenting a weapon and the penalties for doing so if the situation doesn't warrant it. In either case, if two guys in civilian clothes chase me down in traffic and pull guns on me they're going to get some lead poisoning. This could have turned out a lot worse than it did and the investigation should reflect that; but it probably won't.

I dig my Kimber. I don't carry it much since I picked up a Glock, but before then I carried it everywhere. I have a 4''; only a few malfunctions in the first 200 rds and since then it's been fine. If you're buying a used one it should be broken in so you shouldn't have any issues; if not run a few hundred rounds through it and break it in.

When I was still in the military I often had an E-tool and tarp in the back seat of my truck, but I don't think that's PC to search my vehicle for dead hookers. I get what you're saying but it doesn't make it right. Unless there were vehicle break-ins in the area and he matched the description of a suspect then I guess that could be PC when you factor in the tools, but the tools alone, nope. I haven't been stopped in a long time, but I'm going to make sure that if I do get stopped in the future my vid camera will be running on my phone. I've consented to search before when I was younger, but now I usually have a couple of kids in tow, so I'm not about to remove them from car seats and all that just so a LEO can satisfy his curiousity. Who knows how that conversation will go if I refuse, but based on some of the stuff I've read and seen on YouTube there is a good enough chance of it not going well for me and my rights.

hmmm, hopefully they take that before they take my rifles away.

Well for all I know Mr. Estep threatened to kill the officers. That would cause me to draw my pistol on an advancing person. However, we don't have that information yet. For right now we're fairly certain that weapon(s) were pulled. There is only one reason why a weapon should be pulled, right? If he wasn't presenting a threat then it's obvious that the two officers are in the wrong. I'm not convicting them, I'm waiting to hear what he did to get a gun in his face. I just don't think that it will pan out that he was presenting a real threat (1 man vs. 2 men). My big problem is how this is being handled now. It seems to me that there is going to be a clear double standard. The lead invesigator from KPD told the press that she doesn't intend on interviewing the officers. I don't understand. I don't give a crap about department policies or whatever; if that were any of us we would be questioned or we would be getting a lawyer. The fact that the investigating officer has no intention of talking to the two LEOs involved speaks volumes. Double standard. From the article: "Knoxville Police Department Investigator Patty Tipton should complete her probe today and share the results with prosecutors to determine if any charges should be brought, said KPD spokesman Darrell DeBusk. Tipton interviewed the alleged victim, Brock Estep, 31, of Knoxville on Tuesday. DeBusk said Tipton would not formally interview the two Oak Ridge police officers "but is obtaining their information." The probe includes "interviewing a couple of witnesses, third-party witnesses," DeBusk said."

When iPhones, XBOXs and MTV are in jeopardy then people will start to care. These items mean more to the general public than liberty.

Once again, unless that ONE man was presenting a reasonable threat of death or great bodily harm to TWO men that happen to be police officers their actions were not justified. I don't care if Mr. Estep was acting like a raving lunatic and cursing their mothers. He would have been disorderly, but shouldn't have a gun drawn on him. I think it's curious that the investigator in this case is not going to interview the two officers. Do any of you think that if you pulled your weapon on someone that the investigating officer wouldn't even bother to talk to you?? I can already see the direction this is going. Don't expect charges to be filed.

How is this, in any way, legal for the officer to do? I would be suing the crap out of that department. I can't imagine being treated like a criminal and detained for no reason.

I accept the fact that it isn't hard to get a FB page deleted. Hell, I saw someone on the news whose name was Justin Bieber and FB kept deleting his account because they thought it was a hoax. It really doesn't take much for them to pull the plug on someone. One person can report you and if there is anything that is mildly offensive they will kill an account. Happens all the time. He coulda posted a wordy dird and that's what caused it for all anyone knows.

Step 1: Read thouroughly the information above and save links to ATF website. Step 2: Make two copies (front and back) of Form 1. Form 1 has two sides so make sure to print it in that manner. Step 3: Fill out Form 1. Use recent Passport style photo. If you don't have one go to Walgreens and get at least two photos. (When you're ready to fill out Form 1 make sure to ask someone here who has done it here before for help if you aren't clear on what to enter in some of the blocks) Step 4: Go to Sheriff's Dept. Get fingerprinted. Drop off Form 1 with Secretary. Wait for Sheriff to sign. Step 5: Pick up documents from Sheriff's Dept. Put two fingerprint cards (done by your local law enforcement), two x Form 1 w/ photo attached and $200 check or MO. Send to address on ATF website: National Firearms Act Branch Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives 244 Needy Road Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 Payment of the making tax is to be in the form of a check or money order payable to the Bureau ofAlcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Step 6: Wait. Step 7: Keep waiting. Step 8: Receive stamp in mail. Step 9: Purchase items and build SBR. Step 10: Post pictures. Step 11: Go broke feeding SBR.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/class-iii-nfa-firearms-accessories/6890-nfa-guide-what-you-need-know-about-class-iii-firearms.html http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/class-iii-nfa-firearms-accessories/54316-law-firm-attorney-middle-tn-nfa-trust.html http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/class-iii-nfa-firearms-accessories/50120-trust-worth.html http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-3.pdf http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-6.pdf 3.2.3 Registration by makers. Persons other than FFLs and SOTs desiring to make an NFA firearmare required to first register the firearm by filing Form 1 with ATF and obtaining approval of the formand registration of the firearm. Appendix C contains a copy of the form. ATF will approve a makingapplication on Form 1 if the maker pays the $200 making tax required by the NFA, identifies the firearmas the form requires, includes his/her fingerprints and photographs if the maker is an individual, and ifthe making and the maker’s possession of the firearm would not place the maker in violation of anyFederal, State or local law.34 A law enforcement certification is also required if the maker is anindividual. Note also that ATF will not approve the making of a machinegun it determines wouldviolate 18 U.S.C. 922(o). Section 922(o) generally prohibits the possession of machineguns manufactured on or after May 19, 1986. CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE Section 6.1 Requirements for making NFA firearms. Persons not otherwise prohibited frompossessing firearms may submit an application to make an NFA firearm, other than a machinegun.93 The application process requires submission of ATF Form 1, Application to Make and Register aFirearm, in duplicate, along with FBI FD-258, Fingerprint Card, in duplicate, and payment of the $200making tax. Appendix C contains a copy of Form 1. Section 6.2 Preparation of Form 1. Every person (other than a licensed manufacturer who has alsopaid the required SOT to manufacture NFA weapons) must complete the Form 1.94 Two identicalcopies of the application must be prepared. All entries must be made in ink. All required signaturesmust be original and entered in ink. Photocopies or other facsimile or carbon copy signatures are notacceptable. Under no circumstances will a form filled in by use of a lead pencil be accepted. Allchanges made on the form must be initialed and dated by the applicant. 6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name andlocation of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant ismaking a completely new firearm, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a).The type of firearm being made, i.e., short barrel rifle, short barrel shotgun, any other weapon, silenceror destructive device, is to be entered in Block 4( . The caliber or gauge of the firearm is to be enteredin Block 4©. If a model designation has been assigned to the firearm, that designation is to be placed inBlock 4(d). If the weapon has no model designation, enter “none” in Block 4(d). The length of thebarrel is to be entered, in inches, in Block 4(e) and the overall length of the firearm is to be entered, ininches, in Block 4(f).All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existingfirearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serialnumber should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) andentered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serialnumber and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be acceptedas a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition tothe alpha characters.The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 Themarking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer tosection 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements. 93 18 U.S.C. 922(o) 94 26 U.S.C. 5822 95 27 CFR 479.102 96 Ibid 37 6.2.2 Photograph of applicant. An unmounted photograph of the applicant approximately 2 x 2 inchesand taken within the past year must be affixed to the indicated space on each copy of the application.The photograph must be original. Photocopies of photographs are not accepted. 6.2.3 FBI Form FD-258, fingerprint card. A completed Form FD-258 containing the fingerprints ofthe applicant must be submitted in duplicate with the Form 1. The fingerprints should be taken bysomeone qualified to do so and must be clear, unsmudged and classifiable. The person taking thefingerprints must also enter the identification data regarding the applicant and must complete thefingerprint cards by signing as the person taking the fingerprints. NOTE: If the fingerprint cards are notproperly prepared or the fingerprints are not legible, the application cannot be acted upon. If thissituation occurs, ATF will contact the applicant for a new set of fingerprint cards. 6.2.4 Law enforcement certification. As provided by the regulations, the law enforcementcertification located on the back of Form 1 must be completed and signed by the local chief of police orcounty sheriff, the head of the State police, the State or local district attorney or prosecutor, “or suchother person whose certificate may in a particular case be acceptable to the Director.”97 Examples ofcertifying officials, other than those specifically mentioned in the regulations, who have been found tobe acceptable are State attorneys general, heads of district State police offices and certain State courtjudges. Judges’ certifications have been accepted if the judges preside over courts of generaljurisdiction having original jurisdiction in all civil and criminal cases or the authority to conductcriminal jury trials in felony cases. Generally, State magistrates and constables do not have suchauthority. NOTE: no official’s certification will be accepted unless the official has jurisdiction over theplace where the applicant resides. The signature on each copy of the certification must be an originalsignature in ink. NOTE: if the Form 1 being submitted is to reactivate a properly registeredunserviceable firearm, the law enforcement certification is not required. See Section 6.6. 6.2.4.1 What if the proposed maker is unable to find any official in his or herjurisdiction willing to sign the law enforcement certification? The inability to find anyofficial to sign the certification will not excuse the requirement for the certification. In thatevent, the proposed maker will not be able to obtain an approved Form 1 to lawfully make anNFA firearm.Section 6.3 Submission of Form 1. The completed Form 1, in duplicate, with fingerprint cards,photographs of the applicant, and payment of the $200 making tax should be mailed to:National Firearms Act BranchBureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives244 Needy RoadMartinsburg, West Virginia 25405Payment of the making tax is to be in the form of a check or money order payable to the Bureau ofAlcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. 6.3.1 State permit or license for possession of an NFA weapon. If the applicant’s state of residence 97 27 CFR 479.63 38requires a permit or license for the possession of an NFA weapon before the applicant takes possession,a certified copy of the license or permit should be submitted with the Form 1 application. Section 6.4 Approval of Form 1. Non-FFL/SOT’s may seek approval to manufacture an NFA firearm(e.g., short-barreled rifles, short-barreled, shotguns, wallet guns, etc.) via submission of an ATF Form 1.Upon receipt of the completed Form 1, ATF will process the application and, if approved, a tax stampwill be affixed to the original of the form and the approved application will be returned to the applicant.Approval by ATF will effect registration of the firearm to the applicant. Upon receipt of the approvedapplication, the applicant may make the firearm described on the approved Form 1. The approved formmust be retained by the applicant and made available at all times for inspection by ATF officers orinvestigators. Note: Under no circumstances may the firearm in question be made prior to receipt ofthe approved Form 1. The approval of the Form 1 application authorizes the applicant to make the firearm. The approval doesnot authorize the applicant to convey or ship the firearm to another person to manufacture the NFAfirearm. If another person will manufacture the NFA firearm, the other person would be the maker andthe application must be submitted by that person. Subsequent to the making, the firearm could then betransferred, subsequent to an approved Form 4 application, to the person who wanted the modification tobe made.If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm,the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at apremises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was doneunder the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of thefirearm. If the location is outside the applicant’s State and the firearm being made is a short barreledrifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device, or an unserviceable machinegun which is beingreactivated, the applicant will also need to request permission to transport the firearm interstate asrequired by 27 CFR 478.28. Section 6.5 Disapproval of Form 1. If the submitted application is disapproved, ATF will advise theapplicant, provide a reason(s) for the disapproval, and return the making tax payment. Section 6.6 Reactivation of a registered unserviceable NFA firearm. The Form 1 may be used toreactivate a properly registered unserviceable firearm, including registered unserviceable machineguns.Block 4(i) of the form should indicate that a registered unserviceable weapon is being reactivated. Theremainder of the form should be prepared and submitted with the making tax in the same manner asdescribed above except that a law enforcement certification is not required. The existing serial numberon the unserviceable firearm should be used. If the reactivation will be performed by a Class 2manufacturer, see Chapter 7 for additional information. Section 6.7 Incorrect Description of Firearm. If the original registration document for theunserviceable firearm contains incorrect descriptive information for the weapon, a letter should bewritten to the NFA Branch providing the proper description and/or indicating what portions of thedescription need to be changed. The letter should contain photographs of the actual markings on thefirearm. If a correction of the recorded serial number is needed, a photograph or pencil rubbing of theserial number is required. ATF will provide a response indicating that the NFRTR has been amended to39reflect the correct information. This confirmation from ATF should be retained with the registrationdocument for the firearm. Section 6.8 Withdrawal or Cancellation of an ATF Form 1 and Refund of Making Tax. The Form1 applicant may withdraw the application by submitting a request, in writing, to the Chief, NFA Branch.The applicant may also cancel an approved Form 1 application by submitting a request, in writing, to theChief, NFA Branch. The request for cancellation must state that the firearm was not made and mustinclude the approved Form 1 with the stamp affixed. The NFA Branch will amend the NFRTR to reflectthe withdrawal or cancellation of the application and arrange for the refund of the making tax. A requestfor cancellation may only be done if the firearm has not already been manufactured. If the firearm is made, the tax liability is incurred and the applicant cannot seek a cancellation.

Man, thinking about this I haven't been pulled over in such a long time... having kids really changes your driving habits!