TMF

[quote name='Keinengel' timestamp='1353374111' post='848515'] . There is a big difference between having to work a holiday because military service and having to work simply because you work for a greedy employer. And simply quitting and finding a new job also isn't as simple either.[/quote] I work holidays as a civilian now. I don't bitch about it because I chose this job, not the other way around. Yes, it is a choice. If YOU choose to work for a "greedy employer", that is YOUR choice. If you don't like it, find another job. It is not your greedy employer's fault that you came to work for him and then decided that you don't want to put up with their policies. The inconveniences I face in my profession are mine to own. I will never understand why people pin the blame for the negative outcomes of their own choices on others.

[quote name='Chucktshoes' timestamp='1353371666' post='848491']It is a Jedi mind trick to convince folks to volunteer to work the holiday. A paid holiday earns the day's pay whether you work it or not. If you work the day of you make the 8 hours pay, plus the pay for the hours you actually work. If you don't work the holiday, and are scheduled for 32 hrs, then the pay is the same and it is like getting a paid day off. If you are scheduled for 40 hours only if you work the holiday, then working the holiday is like getting paid double time. If you will be scheduled for 40 hours regardless of whether or not you work the holiday then there is no "double time". Make sense?[/quote] Yeah, but for hourly folks working retail, we didn't get paid unless we were clocking in. Don't get nothing for the holidays unless you're working.

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1353370014' post='848473'] Says me. Dunno... thought most of the retailers paid double. :shrugs: Quick look, looks like even Wally pays double time for paid holidays worked.[/quote] They did when I worked there.

[quote name='Cruel Hand Luke' timestamp='1353362245' post='848395']TMF, no one is saying (at least they shouldn't be) that shooting people in the pelvis NEVER works. Just like no one is saying shooting in the head ALWAYS works. I have friend whose dad shot a guy in the leg and the guy stopped. But then you have guys like my great grandfather who killed two guys after BOTH of them had shot him in the torso. Neither one hit anything vital...and he hit both the other guys multiple times in the chest and they died on the spot. You just don't know how someone will react to being hit in a non vital area.Sometimes they crumple and sometimes not.... Most people shot in the heart, spine or brain react the same.... [/quote] I agree with what you're saying, but I'm just trying to keep this subject grounded in reality versus theory. It is not realistic to think you'll be able to engage a small area of a person's face in a situation like this, no matter how much you train. I'm saying this having done more failure drills than I could count with the collective fingers and toes of all the people on this board. I still do them. But I would never trick myself into thinking that I would choose that as a primary target, especially when I know I can get 5 shots off faster into one sight picture than two to the chest and one to the head. The split second it takes to make the transition to a different sight picture isn't worth it to me, especially when I know I might not land the shot on a moving nugget. If I can't finish it with 5 shots to the body in quick succession, than I have landed into the remotest of remote situations, made even more remote by the assailant not responding to fear or pain. So if I ever get attacked by 7 ft tall tweeker who is high on PCP and wearing body armor I might be in trouble. Otherwise, my experience tells me that my course of action is most likely to result in a more positive outcome with out assuming more risk. But I'm a "play the averages" sorta guy.

[quote name='bubbiesdad' timestamp='1353359383' post='848352'] If he stopped, then it worked.[/quote] It did. The point I'm making is that folks get so wrapped around the axle about shot placement hitting specific areas of the body. I think it's great to practice that in training to build that reflexive ability, but to think that you'll have the presence of mind to consciously aim for a specific vital area when you're fighting for your life is just silly. You will aim for center mass and (hopefully) keep shooting until the threat is eliminated. Just like training to fire twice is great, because it builds that muscle memory of following up your shot, but when it counts you're gonna keep shooting until you're sure it's done being a threat. Once again, if a morale patch ranger thinks because he kills paper well he is gonna be some kind of tier one badass if he ever has to draw in self defense he is in for a disappointment.

[quote name='bubbiesdad' timestamp='1353356982' post='848325'] In the middle of editing. Doesn't work means that the threat was not stopped.[/quote] Oh. My uncle shot a guy in a justified shoot about 15 years ago. Once to the gut and twice to the pelvis. He stopped.

[quote name='S&WForty' timestamp='1353358426' post='848337'] That sure is a short sighted statement. Not everyone can hop from job to job especially in this economy. I've had to endure that same line in the Parking Lot Bill thread if someone works for a company that bans firearms from employees' cars. Perhaps someone can drive to work and home unarmed and pray for the best. I guess that same person working on Thanksgiving should pray that their family doesn't miss them. [/quote] Everything comes at a sacrifice. Want to feed the family? Then you might have to work on Thanksgiving. Don't like it? Then work somewhere else or don't work at all. Sorry, I've missed several Thanksgivings and Christmases while deployed to war along with hundreds of thousands of other Sevicemembers that have endured the same. I never expected pity or appreciation, so I have a hard time empathizing with a person that can just go find another job.

[quote name='bubbiesdad' timestamp='1353356395' post='848317'] I had a class this past weekend, which taught us the pelvis doesn't work. If center mass doesn't work, [/quote] Define "doesn't work".

Meh. If your employer requires you to work in Thanksgiving, find a different job. I agree that family is important, and Thanksgiving serves as a day for the family to get together, but I've missed birthdays and every holiday there is when I served in the military. It sucked, but it was the profession I chose and I knew that it came with sacrifices such as that.

If you empty your entire carry gun capacity (5-10) shots into someone's center mass and they're still coming at you, then you are likely not in a self defense shoot; you are a character on The Walking Dead.

Haha, most ridiculous thing I've seen since the tactical 30-30.

[quote name='Gen. Patton' timestamp='1353346203' post='848223'] Well yeah but here's the thing, you have to get to "justified" status first. If you live somewhere like where I do the D.A. is an elected official, plus add the fact that there is a huge amount of people who don't believe in the carring of a firearm for any reason because they don't like guns, you have to take into account that this D.A. and his staff are all politicians with constituencies that they need to please in order to keep their jobs. That being said it behooves one to take certain things into account when acting in self-defense. Justified dosen't mean anything if you can't prove it. If someone is hiding behind a vehicle and the only exposed target is the top of someones head then take the shot. Also, if it's a leg or an arm that's exposed as a target you'll have to decide on-the-fly if it's exposed enough so as to knock the assailant off balance and expose more of them for follow-up shots against the possibility that your bullet might miss and hit a bystander. With freedom comes responsibility.[/quote] If it ain't justified it don't matter where you shoot him. You're going to jail. A halfway literate defense attorney can easily turn a jury off to the relevance of shot placement (talking headshot versus body) so long as action can be seen as justified. For example: there are people who make a living out of shooting bad people, and have lots of experience doing so over the past decade. They would not use the head as a primary target versus center mass due to the increased likelihood of missing and getting shot by the bad guy. They just put a whole mess of rounds into the body until the threat is eliminated. It works.

If between the sudden and steep adrenaline spike, combined with the challenge of hitting a target that is trying not to get hit whilst attempting to get a good sight picture as you instinctively flinch/duck/weave at whatever the assailant is trying to kill you with, you are able to accurately engage a small part of their body that is challenging for many on a good day with a stationary piece of paper...... well, more power to you. Legally, I think any investigative officer/DA/jury member would chalk it up to a lucky shot when you describe it the way I did above. Keep practicing your failure drills on your cardboard, but when it counts you're gonna put a lot of rounds in a very short period of time at the easiest piece of meat you can hit.

I can't believe there is even dialogue over this.

I can promise you that if you have to shoot in self defense you won't be taking the time to pick where you shoot.

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1353251842' post='847608'] I've been waiting for the same thing. All I got was a hot air balloon passing overhead yesterday.[/quote] Well as my wife reminds me, miserable people tend to have miserable lives. My neighbor is a awful human being, but he has to suffer through who he is everyday until he dies a lonely, pathetic death which no one will mourn. Just wish that day would get here sooner than later.

I'm still waiting for a satellite to fall out of orbit and land on my neighbor's house. They moved in 5 years ago and it has been nothing but trouble since. Police have been involved twice.

[quote name='Paladin132' timestamp='1353250340' post='847589'] Like it or not, it is not stupid, it is their right. [/quote] Good God, who is disputing their right to say anything?

[quote name='45guy' timestamp='1353248555' post='847567'] My guess is his business has done very well since putting up the sign.[/quote] If so good for them. Maybe if I owned a business in New York I could attract more patrons by putting up a sign telling Romney voters to go elsewhere. Somehow I think your opinions of that business would be similar to my opinions of this gunstore.

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1353248357' post='847562'] It may well be a stupid business move, but he said he is willing to accept the consequences if it is. But being a Patriot certainly isn’t childish.[/quote] I don't see how it makes him a patriot. Would I be more of a patriot if I just disowned all my friends and family that voted for Obama? It is silly and childish, and equates to a temper tantrum similar to this secession nonsense. It is this sorta immature behavior that makes us such a divided country in regard to politics.

[quote name='Sam1' timestamp='1353245288' post='847533']We'll ask him again what he thinks of firearms for self defense if his house gets broken into and he's beaten to a pulp and robbed of all his things.[/quote] He should put his money where his mouth is by walking from one side of Detroit to the other. I bet this entitled white boy can't do it without getting robbed, shot, stabbed or raped. Perhaps a combination of all. The world is safe when you live in a protected bubble of ignorance.

[quote name='45guy' timestamp='1353247716' post='847555'] It's the fact that as a free person I can make the call not to offer my services to someone regardless of the reason.[/quote] No one is disputing that. The point is, to shut off all business to anyone who voted for a different candidate is a stupid business move and is pretty childish to boot.

[quote name='45guy' timestamp='1353247052' post='847551'][size=4][color=#001320][font=Arial]As a business owner I often choose not to offer our services to some people. That is what is great about living in a free country. We can still choose not to do business with someone. We usually are refusing to buy from someone but it is also refusing to sell to someone. Over the years I have learned a lesson. Bad business is worse than no business. We do not have to subject ourselves to people we do not want to associate with. At the same time no Obama voter has to shop with these guys. It’s still a free country go somewhere else. [/font][/color][/size][/quote] How is someone choosing to vote for a different candidate "bad business"? I'm going shooting with an Obama supporter after Thanksgiving. He has to buy his shooting supplies from somewhere. I doubt he is going into the store with an Obama shirt spouting off about how awful Romney woulda been. Pretty sure he just buys stuff the same as me.

[quote name='OhShoot' timestamp='1353211822' post='847445'] Not their call though. I dare say if only the military voted, BHO wouldn't be the CiC either. - OS[/quote] I think it certainly says something when the military overwhelmingly rejects a presidential candidate. Essentially saying, "we don't want this guy as a boss."

[quote name='K191145' timestamp='1353202090' post='847374'] Then there was this message he got. I loved it. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/JMH42/TroopstoKerry.jpg[/IMG][/quote] Pure gold right there. You'd be hard pressed to find someone in combat arms who supported Kerry back then. He was thoroughly hated from what I recall.