Warbird

Actually it is not a loan, but a purchase of assets. We could either sell them back to the lender or hold them for 5-7 yrs and when values go back up, sell them off. Most of thee companies, like AIG, are not broke, their problem is they have no liquidity. These are the same companies that offer the short range, 1 day to 30 day loans to corporations who use it for emergency procurement or wages. This is why it is so dangerous, w/o that short term capital the economy comes to a huge grinding halt.

Yes the influx of that much money into the system would make our money like the German Mark after WWI.

China, Japan, and Korea all depend greatly on the US for their own strength. There is no shift in power. Europe's problem is dwindling populations. Japan's economy is fragile right now, they have been in a recession for several years. As was said they had huge bailouts less than 10 years ago. To qualify for one of those low interest loans would eliminate all but a small population in this country. Not only is China export dependent but most of their government investment income is investment in the US as is Japan with investment and real estate. Those country's face huge problems if we go down into a slump. A huge majority of China's exports are to the US.

Very interesting concept. Do you mind if I post this on a site for folks involved in ideas to clear up this mess? Please post or pm me your real name so I can appropriately source it. THX

First this is rushed because of market and t bill calls. It is pay now or die time, that is why it is being rushed. They waited till the last minute. Second this reform request on Freddie MAc and Fannie Mae are nothing new. The pres called for reform in public and asked for passage of things as far back as 2002, at least 25 times and congress failed to act. So to put all the blame on the president is just stupid. The hold up now is half congress wants to put in all sorts of stuff to bail out more groups, half the ccongress is saying no way. No one said this is all working men's fault, it was the fault of borrowers, greedy realtors, mortgage industy hacks, not all of course just some and the banks who bought the loans. It is the fault of the gov for pushing banks to loosen standards. The banks shouldn't have given 6% fixed to many of these people, many of them shouldn't have gotten loans at all. Others were talked into it when they didn't need those types of loans because they were ignorant and yet others tried to scam the system and thought they could make money by refi now and then refi again. These were wealthy folks who could easily get conventional loans but didn't, tough **** on them if they got burned. They should have had enough to cover themselves if they got burned. Yet another group of folks are those who live in the bubble areas, such as most of California. These people who got loans there and in some parts of Florida had to get unconventional loans because they are not offered for huses cost over about $500k. In California that won't buy you a trailer, so those folks who had high cost houses and high mortgages simply could not pay when the rates went back up. Who's fault s that. I say it was collusion that drove costs, between appraisers in those area, realtors, mortgage banks in those local areas. Now as to the Buyout, let's be clear on two things. First as to those who say these loans will nevere be repaid. THIS IS NOT A LOAN. This is a purchase of the banks loan holdings. The government will sit on it for a couple of years anbd then sell them off. Actually when the markets in housing go back up, and they will undoubtedly, the government stands to make a kiling off it. The banks are willing to do this now because they need liquidity to continue funding of investment. This is serious crap. Second, I despise we are in this situation, I think it sucks because it was bs for the last 11-12 nyears which got us here. However to those who despise socialism as I do and who think this is a move toward socialism I say, you haven't seen anything till you see what the gov would do if we had another depression, a very vry real possibility if this isn't done. A depression would have us like Europe in a matter of 4 years. There would be no going back. Look back to the last depression, we had a littany of new socialism programs which we still have today. Nope this is actually the best choice of 2 big evils. And I hate it.

Then I would look at a Beretta 390/391 then. They are versatile and a joy to shoot. The Benelli are nice guns as long as you stick with their higher end auto loaders like the SBE. You can find a used one in your price range. The lower end guns are not so hot. Try and shoot a couple first. The Beretta is gas operated, the Benelli inertia operated. Some like one, some like the others. My dad prefers the Benelli, I prefer the Beretta. Both are made by Beretta, both are quality firearms. There are tons of choices really. Look here for some ideas of prices on used auto loaders http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=74&sid=08ee98f7ba755ed9bcf2d249556d6e65

You are correct. This is not about bailing out a few banks. This has major major ramifications, bigger than all of the past 50 years or so major issues which have propped up. This is about banks who loan money to banks. The effect of ending investment banking would be horrendous to our economy as it is fueled by that movement of money. Not debt, but investment. IF investment capital stops everything shuts down. Even with the bailout several investment banks have said they will be commercial institutions from now on, so we are not out of the woods yet. Was this about greed? Sure. Was it all about greed? No. The start of this crisis really goes back to the late 90's when the Clinton admin put pressure on financial institutions with the aid of Robert Reiche to force them to lower standards to get more Americans into new homes. Naturally these are mainly made up of people who probably shouldn't own homes to begin with. Then they added all of the fancy dangerous loans into the mix and sold them to people who really couldn't understand them. As interest rates climbed back up to stop inflation these loans payments skyrocketed, often by $1000 or more a month. Also huge numbers of people who did know better and thought they could save thousand in interest by refi on a balloon at a stupid low rate for 2 yrs then get back into a traditional loan gambled and lost. I have little sympathy for those morons and they don't deserve a damn thing. People couldn't pay and then lost the house, too many houses on the market at once and then prices which were artificially high due to collusion of the real estate industry and appraisers w/ the help of unscrupulous mortgage brokers, then the bubbles that already existed burst and all came down. The saddest part is in places like Cleveland where minorities sold other minorities re-fi loans for imrpovements on houses that were already nearly paid off. Those people didn't need to re-fi they were talked into it by people they trusted. Very sad, albeit ignorant. This became possible because the rules were changed to allow a fuzzy line to develop between what is commercial and what is investment banks. BEfore the lines were quite clear. What AIG was doing was propping up debt by buying derivatives. AG is not broke, but what they need is liquidity. The fed bank, a private institution, would hold those loans as collateral for the liquidity. In return the tax payers would have to produce money through treasury. So inflation is also a possibility. The second half of the problem came in 2001 when rules were changed allowing changes in how funds were allowed to invest especially in the area of commodities and companies who purchase debt. Add to that changes in the structure of how oil is bought and sold. So housing market goes crazy, all funds and hedges put all money into that. The market bursts and all investment dries up as hedges pull all their money. Where to put it now, ah yes weak dollar, pour it into oil, hence driving the costs sky high. The benefactors of oil increases has realy been the speculators and the hedges, which unlike speculators can make money by buying 'puts' on margins not only traditional shares. The ramifications of all of this is unclear, lots of things added to the problem. What we know is that despite what I certainly see as a socialistic move, here the government and fed are the only institutions left to handle the issue as the major investment sources in this country are the ones in trouble. I hate it, but also see that we cannot simply say let the business fail as the ramifications would probably mean deep recession or depression and a world collapse of economy. I do not want another great depression. Anoter thing we can be sure of, changes in rules and more regulation. The fact that some stretched the rules and nearly collapsed us all, will certainly mean the entire industry will be kept under tighter reins again. One apple can ruin the bunch. Here several big apples nearly ruined a whole countries economic stability and may have yet.

Does it have machining marks? Does it have a firing pin safety? Go to military collectors sites and when you decide to sell, do so on AuctionArms.com. They specialize in collectors arms and military arms. There are many variables which make a gun of this sort a highly prized piece (upper end of the value scale) or another run of the mill easily available model (bottom end of the value scale). Collectors of certain guns want every variation. Know your product and then put it out there. The bluing left and such things is not the be all end all of old pieces the way it is determining newer guns. Lots of factors. Don't potentially leave money on the table offering to people who don't know their product or who don't know the variations and just give you a run of the mill estimate. You could have an easily found model meaning collectors may or may not be interested. On the other hand it could be a variation worth much more than most of its kind. Old WWII pistols, rifles, Mausers and the like all have examples of prized and run of the mill guns. A Beretta isn't just a Beretta any more than a Luger is just a Luger.

CZ African 550/602 375 H&H & 416 Rigby 470 Double Rifle

I saw a 12 gauge at a local shop just the other day for $800.

Headed to the opening day of dove season in south Texas in just a couple weeks. Should be fun.

Take it to a good gun show and talked some people about the gun. I wouldn't worry about selling it there. All you can get from a blue book publication is generalities, no matter its condition Markets for collectors pieces varies and can swing one way or the other quite a bit. If you find it's a good time to sell the gun, sell it on AuctionArms.com, check out prices on there you will seen them come up regularly . They deal in far more collectors pieces than Gun Broker and will be seen by collectors. You might find some current prices from Rock Island Auctions, they are having a large auction right now.

The fact that the Dem talking heads keep going on and on that she isn't a good pick, that she is terrible, is a perfect indicator that she is a good pick. The experience factor is what they want to hit on because they want people to pound the idea that is now off the table. It's a good move, but I don't think it will work. They are concerned and they are showing by harping on these things. This is the mantra they want to put out there, otherwise they would blow it off. This is classic stuff, but never discount the public's ability to buy into lies or mantras when told to them enough.

Yes, I think time in office is often overrated. Or the type of time in office. Being a US Senator for 3 yrs doesn't equate to being a gov for 2. However, if someone had been a successful businessman for years, running companies or a company and been a US Senator for two, then they have previous mgt to fall back on. The job of a legislator especially the senate is far less than that of a governor. That's why I laugh my a(^ off all day at these Obama minions talking about her lack of experience when he has even less. Heck Eisenhower was never in office before, but we knew and in a public way, that he knew how to manage and lead and delegate.

LMAO. OK experience for Obama was a short stint as a state senator, where he accomplished very little and did the bidding of the machine. He has never managed anything or anyone. And now he has been a US Senator for less than one term where he has missed most of his voteds and accomplished nothing but running for pres since the day he got there. He has never put himself and his career on the line to stand up for anything!!! Compare that to Palin who was a mayor of a town, with a staff and budget and a state commissioner and a governor of one of the most wealthy per capita states in the US, where she accomplished many things. She had the guts to put her career on the line for what was right and she has good political principles. She does what she says, she slashed spending, ended boondoggle projects which got fat cats money and gave back tax money. Yeah you want to compare Palin and Obama on experience thats OK, but she is the pick for VP not Pres. That's the hilarity of it all. Now compare McCain to Obama. Laughable. This isnt about Palin and Obama, but her limited experience makes no less sense than Obama. And with Palin you will have her runing for what she believes. Obama has to shroud what he believes and his work in public serfvice and office because his record as a far leftist way way outsside of the American norm is simply not pallatable. LMAO..

Len that site can say what it wants. It's pretty funny. Obama still has no experience and people will look at the pres candidates not the VP. It's why Biden adds little, and he actually has as many negatives as Palin. She does have management experience which bama has none at all, zero. Not even as a managing partner of a law firm when he practiced. He is a 1st term senator who has missed over half of the votes he was supposed to make representing his so called millions of citizens. She actually stood up to a corrupt and in her own party and dismantled a political machine of many years. She has guts. Compare apples to apples, experience is on the table still as one would go to the WH and one could go. And let me tell you this so called cprruption stuff is bunk. This is coming from hold overs of those who had all the power before. She told themn to bring it on she has nothing to hide and that is what they will find. Of course it came from republicans, the old good old boys who want her gone so they can take back over. She will win far more votes from womenh than Biden will ever give Obama. It kills me when these talking heads have no ability to be objective in the least bit. Most of the time they are so wrong in their spin its unreal. It is already coming back to haunt though, this attitude will only get them isolated fomr the mid section of the country and the elitist crap so often expected of modern liberals. How dare this hick come from the back country and expect to play the game with the ivy league elite. Come on already. Even her husband will help her pull in union votes from private industry union members. Oh and Len let me assure you of thise, the dems are nervous with this pick. I talked to several today after the announcement. For one thing they counted on a 12-15 pt jump this week and didnt get it. I told them last week that was absurdly high but they disagreed. Now this comes out today. They are nervous as even if things seemed all rosy at the end of the convention it wasnt. No they were concerned and now they are very concerned. The moron who wrote that piece has zero political instinct. Probably was a low level staff or volunteer on campaigns yrs ago and thinks they know something.

Edited, this type of ignorance isn't worth my time to respond.

Is that the same guy for sure Mars? Sounds like it, unless he has a dad there by the same name. His bio says he went to work for a chemical company after HS. If it is him, he cost his company millions, way to go dingbat. Oh and for the record Mars, I give you permission to have an opinion on a candidate for whatever reasons you decide or decide to base your opinions on no reasons at all if you wish, regardless of your moderator status.

I guess it is a matter of taste there. Do they get more people, yes. Are the vendors or the crowd, those selling something, the sort that appeal to me? No not at all. They have a few guns, a few interesting vendors and a lot of s@*&. I would say they are good if you like certain types of black guns and new pistols. I have gotten to where I almost attend no regular gun shows, only collectors shows, which have everything you can think of old and yes even new, special stuff like the black gun stuff and its various suppliers and parts.

This thread is pretty funny. Libertarian candidates can afford to be hardcore, they have nothing, nada. Once they had some people in office and some sort of influence, especially in leadership they would have huge numbers of them squish out too. It's the nature of the beast, most office become squishes and they usually squish once they have positions of leadership, it has nothing to do with length of time in office. England is a great example, tons of parties, lots of so-called hardliner parties, yet there are essentially only two parties in England as they all line up on one side or the other almost the same people, almost all of the time. There are two major philosophical ways to look at government, the rest is just details. Why do we have parties at all? Because it is human nature, it is a natural part of our governmental process. And I am thankful for parties, I am thankful for partisanship. Not all officeholders suck, just many of them. There are principled people in office, you just have to get more and get them more powerful roles in the party. Parties do change, it has happened and it will happen in the future too. Vote how you like, but if you think your vote for some other party would lead to that other party getting power and being the be all end all, you will be vastly disappointed. you are better off working and local and state levels throughout the country to take control of the major party which represents the majority of your beliefs.

Summer shows are always less vendors and far smaller crowds. The fall and winter shows will be much bigger. And about the Smyrna Expo center. The builder and owner of that building was Bob Pope. He sold it to a crumb of a person, a crook, who bought the building had hardly paid on it and went bankrupt. It went into receivership for a long time while Pope tried to get his money from the lech. Then the lech gets a nice pardon from Clinton on some other nasty affair scam he pulled that sent him to prison some years before. Then the crapper up and dies and so I don't think Pope ever did get all of his money as the scum tried to sell the building while he was in bankruptcy. The guy did have some positive business deals over the years and appeared to be a good buyer from what I heard. I don't know for sure how it all ended, but it did put a damper on the Pope shows for a while.

Hans Gruber was partial to the P7. [ame] [/ame]

A cool training video on the P7. [ame]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6239098748148707308[/ame]

Then just wait till you have a wheel gun lock up, then your mind will really be messed up, You won't have anywhere to turn.

That's a pretty cool idea there. $30 gets you $30 worth of ammo, a free meal and hang out with gunnies for an evening. My wife went to an event this year and tried to win that Savage 22-250. I'd like to win that rifle, sweeeeet for prairie dogs. Good work Len.