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My wife reminds me all the time, especially when dealing with my trouble-making neighbors as a representative of the HOA board (a mistake I will never make again), that I spend too much time trying to bring people around to my way of thinking. I believe that she's right. I've spent too much time doing that in this very thread. My opinion, therefore, is that Israel should unleash hell on Palestine and Iran and forever change the map of the Middle East. If this accelerates the end of the world, then come quickly Lord Jesus.

I thought I was going to take a break from this thread for a while, but here I am just wanting to make one appeal to you all that I hope crosses party lines and partisanship thinking: Carry your damned gun. Do not for a moment think that it is unfathomable that a militant extremist could walk into Main Street Yourtown, USA and start attacking innocent civilians. It has happened before in our country, and it is likely to happen again. You can either be a helpless spectator, a victim, or a first responder. Your choice.

I get a kick out of it when someone compares the 3rd world trash illegals to the Irish. Italians, etc who immigrated here legally. Sure there was prejudice, but they overcame by becoming Americans. They embraced being Americans not like some others who still hate the country that's given them so much opportunity. Comparing the demonstrators on Jan 6 to terrorists is silly. The only terrorist there was the scumbag who killed Ashley Babbit. Some might consider the ushers who opened the velvet ropes conspirators.

I can tell you this. I have a couple of “innocents” whom I do not wish to see drafted and sent into slaughter halfway around the world by the same damned politicians who have likely funded both sides of the debacle.

Here's where I am at with this: Who gunned down Israeli children in their beds and cribs, or hiding in safe rooms with their families? Who gunned down Israeli concert-goers as they scattered looking for a safe direction to run? Who captured, raped, beat, and killed Israeli women of all ages? Who knocked on doors in residential areas and gunned down the Israeli citizens who naively opened the door to see who was there? Find the people who did that. Find the people who financed it. Find the people who planned it. Find the people who knew about it in advance, remained silent, and allowed it to happen. And then end them. All of them. I don't care to sort out agendas or to play 4D Chess. If someone was involved, they need to go. I don't care what side of the argument they were on.

You're right. This is exactly why multiculturalism in America has been a terrible mistake. Allowing uncivilized peoples into this country, giving them welfare, and not requiring them to assimilate into the American culture or be deported, has put the enemies of civilization in our cities, towns, and neighborhoods. One only needs to look at housing projects, ghetto areas, junkie and bum camps to see that's happening all over America.

A lot of things can be true at once. 1. Hamas is a terrorist group that has committed unspeakable evils. For the first time in many of our lifetimes, there is a window of unanimity behind Israel. You better believe they're going to take advantage of that. The softening that's happening right now is just to clear a path for the ground invasion to come. They're going to level most of the Gaza Strip. 2. You can weep for the people affected by this. No one can possibly calculate to any reasonable decimal points the good guys and the bad guys. But, there are thousands of empty seats at dinner tables in both Israel and the Gaza Strip that weren't that way last week - and those folks didn't pick up a weapon. Most people just want to live their lives in peace - it should cause us pain when that peace is broken. 3. There are no easy days - and someone has to be willing to use force to stand in the gap. That's the way it's always been - and it's likely the way it always will be. There are certainly a variety of folks who've been looking for this fight for a long time - and there are plenty of folks who will try to use it to their advantage. 4. America is almost certainly at war here - and we just don't realize it yet. Two Carrier Strike Groups are already inbound waiting for the escalation that is to come. There are certainly Tier 1 assets on the ground waiting for actionable intel for rescues. It's going to get worse before it gets better. 5. There is an enormous humanitarian crisis in the making. Egypt has already closed its border with the Gaza Strip because they don't want the refugees. There will reasonably be a million people homeless when this is done. One more thing - I can't speak to anyone's faith here - but I can say that when you refer to people as 3rd world trash illegals or uncivilized peoples or whatever that speaks to a deeply seated racism that will not be tolerated on TGO.

Honestly I believe Israel shouldn't go in. I think they should tell Iran they want their people back and they want all of the people involved within 24 hours. After 24 hours Iran starts losing assets. Things like the entire navy. Every military base. Every nuclear site. If one hostage is killed, pick a city and give them a 24 hour notice to vacate it. After the 24 hours, remove the city from the Erath. Iran is the man behind the curtain. Glad I'm not in charge. Create such fear in terrorist states that they police themselves. Then we and every other country gets out of everyone else's business.

It's only hatred in the eyes of those who are triggered when I call a spade a spade, but that doesn't make me wrong. Those who invaded the Capitol were wrong. Those who did damage should be prosecuted. Anyone who threw fire bombs, if any, should have been shot in the act. The same as the rioters in cities.

40 babies slaughtered by Hamas terrorists. Some reports I have read said that infants were found beheaded. Just something to keep in mind as we're having the unmitigated gall to armchair quarterback the response of people who are having to match up the severed heads of their infant children with the bodies so that they can bury them. I think I'm done participating in this thread for now. Going to go hug my kids and try not to go crazy thinking about how I need to protect them from this kind of #### in our world. If I were a father of a murdered child in Israel right now, I'm not sure anyone could talk to me about maintaining civility without it becoming uncivil.

I've seen some videos of the attacks and I now think most of this thread is largely irrelevant. Whether or not Israel is legitimate or is an apartheid regime or stole land from the Palestinians or lived there first or Netanyahu knew about the attack - none of it matters. Beheading civilians with shovels and raping grandmas and abducting toddlers is probably going to net a result somewhat different from whatever Hamas had hoped to achieve. I doubt Hamas and Palestine and perhaps Iran exist much longer and I bet Israel doesn't give three flying monkey sh*ts what the UN or Amnesty International or the rest of the world thinks about what they are about to do.

I agree with what McGyver said. While I pray for a total victory by Israel over Hamas and Hezbolla, I also pray for the innocent victims on both sides of the conflict. War has no winners, especially those caught in the middle who only want to live in peace. When Judgement Day takes place, it won't matter whether you're Israeli, Muslin Christian, black, white, etc; we will all stand before and answer to the same God who created all of us. My hope is that this isn't the start to WW3. IsraelStrong

I guess it depends on whether you want it to happen again in the near future? I don’t know how you deal with a group of folks who’s life’s goal is to kill you. Do you know how to identify a member of Hamas? I do not. I’m sure glad I don’t live there!!!

Bottom Line. Whoever, whatever is coming to hurt or kill your family, friends, or country, you eliminate the threat by any means possible. I'm angered by the savage massacre in Israel. I'm also angered that our own .g0v has opened our country for attack. Watch your six & always remind those around you to do the same. In regards to OMC's above post, if you don't carry a higher capacity weapon, at least carry extra magazines or speed loaders.

There's a whole segment of American society that is willing to demonstrate the truth of FAFO if that ever really happens.

Dude, to hell with anyone who had any involvement in this. On any side. I don't need to be convinced that if you follow the money, it will lead you many dens of vipers. It doesn't matter who they are, they need to be brought out into the light of day and then be dealt with swiftly and severely. It feels like you're intent on making sure we know who's involved as if that will bring about some soothing moral equivalency that will ease the pain. The agony of a dad burying his child isn't diminished by knowing that his own government was somehow complicit or somehow made moves on the chess board decades ago that lead to this moment.

These monsters were nurtured in the arms of these Palestinian "innocents". These repugnant terrorist pieces of crap were fed, educated, and encouraged there. Hamas didn't raise them, Hamas gave them an outlet for the evil that was instilled in them by their upbringing. Not all Palestinians are beheading babies, raping innocent women in the streets, and murdering REAL innocents in the streets, but they all are complicit and their hands are NOT clean.

The terrorists aren't fighting to achieve a peace. They've stated time and again they want the death of every Jew and the destruction of Israel. I believe them. That's the reason they must die and the destruction of that belief must perish for peace to occur. If it takes the death of 10,000 people or 250,000 to achieve, that's fine with me. No mercy to terrorists, foreign or domestic.

What ideology are those children being raised to believe in? It's a hard question but you know it's one that has to be answered. Western society likes to believe that all kids the world-over are just cute little tykes playing with building blocks and watching Cocomelon on TV. That simply isn't true. Some of those kids have been robbed of their innocence and their childhood and have, by their own parents, already been turned into fanatics who would kill you if given the chance. It disgusts me that there are places in this world where children cannot just be children. Where they are taught to hate and to kill. There is most certainly a place in hell for the adults who turn them into that. This sort of #### is why some of my friends who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan have debilitating PTSD. They have seen children commit atrocious war crimes and can't rid themselves of those memories. I don't have an answer for how this is handled cleanly. The only thing I can do is pray and ask God to save as many kids on both sides of the Israeli border walls as He can.

There has been a lot of manure spread here with some nuggets of wisdom interspersed here and there. That said; here are some things to think about: 1... Iran is the " Head of this Snake ", and has been for the last fifty years or so. We, the good ole USA, and the Western Allies made Iran. We treated the father of this trouble, the Ayatollah Komeni, like a rock star, and allowed him to drag Iran back into the tenth century... So much for American and Western thought. Thank the dumbo Jimmy Carter for that. 2... Until Iran is neutered, there will be no peace in Israel or anywhere else in the Middle East. 3... Remember, the Mullahs see Israel as " The Little Satan ", and the good ole USA as " The Great Satan "... Six Billion garbanzos and toadying up to these insane barbarians has not changed anything with them. 4... This latest attack on Israel was orchestrated and approved by Iran... They have said so. 5... No amount of pleading or cajoling the Israelis will work now. They are simply too mad for any moderation. I think that anyone implicated in this will pay a heavy price. That includes Iran. 6... I do not think that a nuclear strike against Iran is out of the question. 7... I do believe that the " Palestinian States " of Gaza and The West Bank will cease to exist; along with anyone else who meddles in this. I believe that God alone, is the only Being who can stay their hand now. 8... Brother Greg is right; we are not the world's policemen. We better sit this one out and give the Israelis what they ask for, if we can. isolationist leroy...

I may be the odd man out, but I personally find the timing of the ban to be as much about a strong opinion opposite of those moderating. I don't feel he was personally attacking anyone here. David even mentioned just letting things go and letting everyone have a thick skin (paraphrasing). I may not always agree with what he said, but the perception of the ban to me seems like retaliation. Either let people have at it or just stop it all.

I have friends in the Land of Israel, they keep me informed on what is happening in their home area. The attitudes of the every day Israeli, their habits and their expectations have been radically shifted/shattered. Most favor a war action to terminate the nightmare of promises, deals then bloodshed. "The innocent will be mourned " was a phrase I heard several times and it scared me how vehement the sentiment was. Never again, never again. We are half a world away, debating and arm chair quarterbacking decisions made by people under fire and being slaughtered in their homes. The Hebrew position was land for peace. The Muslim position was extermination of Jews at all cost, at every turn. As a people, population or government you cannot bargain with a foe that wants your total destruction. I support the Jewish people and want their suffering to end, even if it involves complete destruction of the operators/financiers/governments that are responsible for this. Israel belongs to God alone. He gave it to the Hebrews and all that would follow Him. Yes I am a follower of the Messiah and this violence is just the beginning of the end. I am not waxing religious, but I know how it ends....for all involved. I was told caption to the image reads "The Difference"

This has been the policy of 'Death to Israel' from Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, and Iran. Israel will now operate on the successful policy of WW2 strategic bombing of cities, industrial, and military targets no matter how small nor whose house they're in. To those who cry, "What about the children?" should remember the Hitler Youth, the indoctrination from infancy, and no matter how young were used in battle to kill Allied soldiers.

Here's what is coming to Gaza ... It needs no comment or explanation... https://www.timesofisrael.com/?post_type=liveblog_entry&p=3118605 leroy

Often, it takes a wakeup call. Witness the number of guns sold after the race riots in the last three years. People are tired of the lawlessness, rioting, and arson. If the police can't or won't protect you, and they are likely to be 15 minutes away, you are not required to commit suicide by waiting.

Good. Bearing in mind what Jews have gone through in the past in many parts of the world, American Jews political beliefs as a group have always surprised me. Good to see that starting to change, though I hate the reason.

Even the Israeli army can’t/won’t confirm the event took place. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-says-it-does-not-have-confirmation-about-allegations-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-/3014787 Nobody ever looked like a fool for waiting for the actual truth to shake out. It’s wise to always take enough time to make sure of the facts, especially when the story lines up a little too perfectly with the narrative you’ve already built in your head. No I don’t believe that the PEOPLE of NYC deserved what befell them. That doesn’t change the fact that I also still have strong suspicions that our government doesn’t have entirely clean hands on the matter. I made the distinction between who’s responsible/culpable and who usually pays the price more than once in this thread.

You know people said the same things about the Irish, Italians and others when they immigrated to this country? You were right when you told chucktshoes that weren’t wearing a mask. I remember saying as much when you first joined TGO. You came right in with similar opinions and the comfort of someone who lives in the same manner. You’ve never worn a mask. That’s for certain. It’s rare to see such hatred boldly on display. It’s truly sad! One last thing, when you mentioned killing domestic terrorist, does that include the people who attacked the capitol?

My purpose in drawing attention to who is involved is that it is wise to know the real score to protect oneself from being manipulated into actions that are ultimately not in one’s own interests. Who’s really benefitting and who is really paying the cost in blood, treasure, and their souls. On that note, with respect to the reports of the beheaded babies that have struck so hard because it is absolutely horrific if true. I would like to remind you of the stories from the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait about Iraqi soldiers pulling babies from incubators and dashing them against the wall. Those stories weren’t true just like the stories of Snake Island and the Ghost of Kyiv more recently. In the early days of any conflict there is often the craziest and/or most horrific propaganda that gets spread. I don’t know if these reports are true or false and they could certainly be either. I’m just advocating caution in believing anything that isn’t independently multi-sourced verified and rushing to judgements on that information. Maybe just to the villains in our government responsible. My non-interventionist positions have been pretty stable for all of the nearly 15 years I’ve been around here. I’d like to stop financing all of it and focus on fixing our own crap instead of stirring it up elsewhere. I kinda have a bit. I have no issue with targeting and striking those responsible. I do have issue with not doing everything possible to minimize the loss of innocent life of those not actively involved. Gaza has been essentially an open air prison for the last 16 years. Get the women, elderly and kids out and flatten it. But one must come before the other.

Also think about how you're going to protect them from the terrorists coming through the undefended southern border and the terrorists who riot, loot, and murder in US cities.

Better the dead children of terrorists and their supporters who use them as shields than the children of Israel.

Some call it genocide, I would call it making casualties of war. It's obviously not all of the Palestinians that support Hamas, but I am certain the vast, vast majority were glad with what happened. I have spent more years than most in Europe and have seen first hand how the infiltration of Muslims has progressed and the sheer disregard for anything outside of their own beliefs as immigrants. After 911, I had many conversations with coworkers in France and Belgium who were Muslim and by all accounts, seemingly decent people. That being said, there was not a single local person in our offices who believed our Muslim coworkers felt any remorse or quite frankly didn't quietly think what happened was justified. I firmly believe the amount of casualties over time will be the same. Drag it out over years or do with unprecedented force now. I will take the short path every time. It's pretty simple to me. What ended WWII, unprecedented force! Does that make me a bad person, maybe. I can live with it.

Agree. And I want us out of Ukraine as well.

It's painfully obvious they knew this attack was going to happen and allowed it. To believe otherwise it would mean one of the worlds best intelligence groups had the biggest failure since 9/11. We are all being manipulated and all the usual suspects are banging the war drum. I just hope we watch from a distance and don't get involved.

As is always the case with something like this happens, a great question to ask yourself is “are you being manipulated, and by whom for what ends?”

Looks like you might be getting your wish.

I was at the Grand opening.....what a great event. Even enjoyed the speeches. Uncle Si with Duck Dynasty gave the invocation. Maryville PD color guard did the honors and National Anthem. Lt. Gov Randy McNally and Rep. Sexton presented as well. Rep Burchett led the pledge. Overall a great event. Multiple vendors were there with good discounts. Many food vendors. Country Music stars and shooting demos. Shot 6 different S&W firearms in their indoor range. Quite an event.

GONE

Kind of surprised me that it took as long as it did ...

You are all over the place here. What does one have to do with the other? Many European immigrants to the US were in fact “trash” as you put it. Penniless people looking for a better life that just so happened to contribute more to “our” society in terms of what your perceptions are in culture. So many who came here legally were straight up criminals, grifters, hucksters, etc., and no, they did not 100% assimilate. And the January 6th morons? Really, what’s the point in bringing them into it?

I can promise that formally liberal anti-gun Jews are in gun shops today. Two of my Jewish friends have asked for gun advice in the last 24 hours and are taking their Temple and Synagogue protection up three levels to armed congregants at every service and occasion. Their eyes have been opened. Their complacency is over. They will defend themselves and I will help them.

We finance all kinds of crap, so I guess we are ultimately responsible for all of it? Death to America?

I'm keenly aware, thanks.

There’s a difference between using metaphors to dance around the subject to say something without actually saying it, and openly advocating for the murder of children because of who their parents are or where they were born. This was the whole point of this line of questioning that I was posing. When we talk about things like “leveling the place“ “wiping them all out” and such, we are speaking in terms of genocide. Killing not just people who do evil but everyone around them, including, innocents, women and children. I choose to believe that many of us here engage in this kind of language, without fully walking it out completely in our minds, and understanding what we are really saying. I have to. I want people to think about what the concrete actions and consequences of those actions are that they advocate for. Those who are comfortable advocating for actual genocide, there is nothing further for me to engage with them at that point. They are as inhuman to me as the Hamas terrorists, who slaughtered women and children this weekend. One cannot decry the calls for the death of the Jews by Muslims, and in the next breath advocate for the genocide of Palestinians and maintain any semblance of a moral consistency.

Sorry your reading comprehension isn't working. I made it plain. Wipe out the terrorists. Destroy the snake den. Those that stand in the way of removing the terrorists are aiding the terrorists and need to go. I feel the same about dropping the bombs on Japan. I wasn't for the genocide of the Japanese. I was for the utter destruction of their ability to fight. Same here. Make of it what you will. It matters not to me.

How is bombing the Gaza Strip back to the stone age any different than allied forces leveling Berlin and other towns and cities in Germany during WWII? Not all German people were Nazis any more than all Palestinians are Hamas, but the world apparently recognized the fact that eradicating cancer unfortunately comes with the pain of surgery and committed themselves to eradicating cancer. Look... I don't want collateral damage. I wish there were a clean way to deal with this. I'm not seeing one. What's your recommendation?

I want Israel to have aid military and civilian help. I don't want US troops on the ground. I should have stated that. Thanks.

IMO the best single sentence in the seven pages of this thread.

Pure evil is everywhere, but Hamas and others like it are even more so.

IF you reload, or know someone who reloads, you can pull the bullets, and "re-cycle" the components if you have an interest in that. The quantity you have may not make it worth the effort, but if you have sufficient quantity, most of the components can be re-used by someone.