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Is that the only map we're allowed to use, or can we go even further back... centuries back... to see who had claim to the land before? Over the course of its history, Palestine has been owned by Ancient Egypt, Ancient Israel, Judah, the Persian Empire, Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, several Muslim Caliphates, the Ottoman Empire, and then finally the United Kingdom before it was divided in 1948 between Israel and the Gaza Strip. Ownership of the dirt beneath Israel has been hotly contested practically since the beginning of human civilization. It has always been a crossroads for commerce, culture, and religion, and a slew of kingdoms and governments have had laid claim to it over the centuries. You'll note that Ancient Israel is in that list and their claim to the land began somewhere around 1200 years before the birth of Christ. So, if we're just comparing receipts, they've got a pretty old claim to that dirt and it's not just circa 1948.

My thoughts on the matter could get me banned, but If I were Israel......the world would pause for a moment.

I think Israel should wipe Hamas off the map but it's hard (impossible?) to kill an ideology. At best they'll just kick the can down the road by killing a generation, but they'll create a whole new generation of zealots who are seething with an even more intense fire by doing so. This all feels like armchair quarterbacking, though. Spectator sport. What worries me is that the same people who hate Israel hate America and I really don't care what their reasons are or whether we or Israel have it coming. The reality is that governments have it coming and that citizens are collateral damage. I don't want my kids to be someone else's collateral damage. That said, I'm pretty convinced this #### is coming to an America near you at some future point in time. I hope I am wrong, but if it does, it's going to be all of our problem in a much more real way than bickering about it on the Internet.

As I get older, I think of this more and more.

Only true friends can discuss politics and religion. Any others will fall into anger. I have my beliefs and you have yours, as long as we are civil, we can discuss anything. Respect for your fellow man should be at the top of your list of things to do every day. Yes, political policies from several nations contributed to this mess. No I don't relish or encourage war. That said, I agree with the Biblical way to wage war, kill them all and let God sort them out. THTA is why we need great leadership in great countries, because war is the very last option to protect yourself and your nation.

I feel the same way about the looting, rioting, and arson that takes place in American cities against innocent civilians under the guise of social justice.

The gun availability and ease of carry permits will now be a part of the new Israel. Israel must remember to take care of its own regardless of what others say. Who had you rather have as an ally? A Jewish family man who is a middle-class worker or a Hamas Muslim fanatic ready to slit your throat over Mohammed? Sometimes choices are that simple.

I see no issue in taking land from a neighbor who attacks you and keeping it to prevent more attacks.

War, huh. Yeah! What is it good for? Absolutely noth...oh wait, yeah, I see it now.

Growth was natural, expansion was self preservation. The Jewish nation propagated and needed more land, they also had to create buffers against radical extremists bent on driving them out. when Ben gave the sodbusters 40 acres to farm, he didn't think about them getting bigger. when they started fencing off his range and killing his cattle he had them all hung and took his 40 acres back. Israel has gotten too big to hang and they have U.S. backing up their fences. While it may have been bad planning to relocate the Jews back to the middle east, most of us are not old enough to remember when there was no Israel. In my opinion, it is the Palestinians who refuse to live beside the Jews. All religion aside, Israel exists, the U.S. exists, history is written by the victors and revised by those who oppose them.

If nothing else, this invasion of Israel shows the importance of the 2nd Amendment in America. Israel does not permit private citizens to own firearms. Now it's time for Israel to get their own 2nd Amendment and start killing the invaders. While this won't affect those progressives who want to disarm Americans, this is the best example yet of why private ownership of firearms and the 2nd Amendment is the supreme amendment to the Constitution. Without the 2nd, none of the other amendments matter.

I really feel that trying to moderate political threads on TGO is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. It can't be done. I also feel that forbidding discussion of political things is a similar proposition. Politics are so intertwined with firearms and firearms ownership that people drawn to guns and gun forums will also always be drawn to talking about political topics. Even if the topics seemingly have nothing to do with guns. At a fundamental level, all political topics involve force or the threat of force once you start making laws. Instituting a law requires the threat of repercussions if the law isn't obeyed. The government's answer to the question, "Or else - what?" always has been that they will use force to remove you from public or even the gene pool if you fail to comply. We could try [again] to forbid anything political being discussed on TGO, but that also means people won't be allowed to talk about current events. This doesn't appeal to me. Or I could just tell people to grow the #### up and be ready to receive it if you dish it out and see who's left standing. I swear, though. The absolute intolerance of other opinions makes me think some of y'all pee sitting down.

I feel the same way about the invasion of our southern border.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/retail/smith-wesson-officially-moves-headquarters-blue-state-tennessee Firearm manufacturer Smith & Wesson officially moved its headquarters from New England to Tennessee, earning praise from the NRA. "Congratulations to Smith & Wesson on their grand opening in Tennessee. This move is a testament to their enduring legacy, their commitment to firearm excellence, and to the importance of preserving America’s gun industry and Second Amendment rights in a fair environment," NRA Executive Director of Advancement Tyler Schropp told Fox News Digital in an exclusive comment. "Representing millions of NRA members and gun owners, the NRA was proud to be the tip of the spear for the passage and enactment of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act that saved America’s firearm industry," Schropp continued, citing the 2005 Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act that prevents firearm manufacturers from being held liable if products are used to commit a crime. Smith & Wesson was established in 1852 in Connecticut before it soon moved its headquarters to Springfield, Massachusetts. Now, the firearm manufacturer calls Maryville, Tennessee, home after holding a ribbon-cutting ceremony Saturday at its new 650,000-square feet headquarters. "From where I stand, the next 170 years of Smith & Wesson are looking pretty good," Smith & Wesson President and CEO Mark Smith said Saturday, according to The Daily Times. "It is something special here in Tennessee." Smith touted state gun laws and his close work with local leaders for the move to Tennessee, describing the relocation as "seamless." Democrat-led Massachusetts has some of the most strict gun laws in the U.S., while Republican-led Tennessee has expanded gun laws in recent years, including approving permitless carry in 2021. The ribbon-cutting event Saturday showcased renowned competitive shooter Jerry Miculek set an NRA record when he hit six steel plates with a 9 mm revolver in 1.88 seconds. "Additionally, a special salute to Jerry Miculek, an NRA World Champion shooter, for his remarkable feat of shattering the NRA World Record with six shots in just 1.88 seconds from 7 yards out during the grand opening event. The NRA stands proudly with exceptional marksmen like Jerry as he forges ahead in his unparalleled journey," the NRA’s Schropp added in his comment to Fox News Digital. The new headquarters, which was first announced in 2021, sits on 230 acres southwest of the McGhee Tyson Airport, the Knoxville News Sentinel reported. Tours of the facility were offered during the grand opening, with Smith & Wesson spokespeople telling local media that the gun manufacturer will also build a museum and retail store in the coming years.

I've seen some videos of the attacks and I now think most of this thread is largely irrelevant. Whether or not Israel is legitimate or is an apartheid regime or stole land from the Palestinians or lived there first or Netanyahu knew about the attack - none of it matters. Beheading civilians with shovels and raping grandmas and abducting toddlers is probably going to net a result somewhat different from whatever Hamas had hoped to achieve. I doubt Hamas and Palestine and perhaps Iran exist much longer and I bet Israel doesn't give three flying monkey sh*ts what the UN or Amnesty International or the rest of the world thinks about what they are about to do.

I have always been amazed at the amount of blood shed throughout history over that little spot of sand.

People wish to pretend that all the Native Americans lived in peace and harmony, that the Palestinians had an advanced society, that Africa was the cradle of civilization, etc. And that's all wrong. Native Americans murdered and tried to genocide each other, Palestinians were the poorest and least educated of all the Arab peoples, and Africans practiced slavery, cannibalism, and lived as prehistoric grotesqueries long before and up until the white man arrived and in many areas those same practices are ongoing today. Africa is still the most backwards area on earth, ruled by African exploiters, and wherever the colonists were run out, it has returned to a cesspool of ignorance. So, Happy Columbus Day.

“Follow the money” will seldom lead you astray.

If history and events aren't relevant and only exist in a vacuum, then the lessons of history and events are lost. You cannot allow invaders and terrorists to dictate how you should act according to their desires. Europe has paid and will continue to pay the price for illegal aliens. So has America. If you choose not to learn and make comparisons, that's your problem. So far, your dictates about what should or can be discussed in this thread have no power. Hit the delete button if you're triggered.

I have no way of proving such an assertion, but I damn sure can't disprove it! Sometimes, there just aren't any "good guys".

I disagree with only the federal government policing us. The only function our federal government should attend to is maintaining the security of OUR nation. We do not need them policing us, we have state and local government for that. Maintaining our security sometimes involves fighting foreign wars, I try to elect leaders I trust to make that decision in our best interest. You are correct on the rest, including our governments spectacular failure lately.

Like any other unrest in the world, this has the US hog’s fingerprints all over it. My only point in what I posted earlier is that the entire world would be a better place if the US stayed home and attended to its own problems. Our government is not the world’s police. The world does not want them to be the world’s police. I can’t recall anything the US gov hasn’t made worse by attempting to be the world’s police. They should be OUR police. A job they’ve failed miserably at lately.

It's called a logical comparison of two similar events. Infiltration, killing, looting, and arson by criminals, and destroying private property. If your home was invaded, your business destroyed, and your family injured or killed by invaders, why does it matter if it was Hamas in Israel or BLM in your city?

I agree. I'd love to tour many of the historical sites in Israel. This sort of thing prevents me from doing so.

9 dead, unknown number missing and unaccounted for. Now I’m gonna come off a bit heartless sounding here. For any Americans that have found themselves dead or captured by Hamas, they have my sympathy, but that doesn’t extend enough to risk the lives of service members or further escalations of hostilities to rescue them. When one travels abroad they need to understand that the risks involved. Sure, they went to some rave for peace or whatever, but if you are in Israel you have a significantly more than non-zero chance of getting caught up in the crossfire between Israelis and Palestinians. They rolled the dice and it came up craps. Sorry for their luck.

I just saw on the news that 9 Americans were killed in the attacks. It sure would be comforting if we had some semblance of adult leadership in DC right about now.

I'd rather have Israel in the Middle East than Hamas and the terrorist Palestinians. I hope Israel destroys them. This isn't from a Biblical perspective. It's from knowing that Israel makes a better partner against terrorism and Muslim extremism than any one else in that neighborhood. Now, thanks to the open-borders of the Biden administration, how many Hamas and other terrorists have waltzed through the friendly Southern Border and given warm reception by this administration and have been given free access to states and cities. Wait until the bombs and shootings begin in American cities thanks to feel-good progressive politics and supporting administration. Just think what Hamas could do with money from Iran - maybe part of that 6 billion released to Iran by Uncle Joe. To think that the weakness of Biden and his administration had nothing to do with the attack from Hamas is naive at best.

It turns out that we're better off than they are in defending against terrorist attacks. Comparing America to Israel on gun laws is dishonest – and revealing | The Times of Israel

Sold

I'm not a praying man, but I do hope that Hamas, its supporters, the PLO, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood become sand worm food. It's time for a big foot to stomp them like a cockroach on the kitchen floor, and use poison for the cockroaches hiding in the cabinets. Biden's bloody hands are on every bomb, terrorist, and rocket by his payments to Iran, the ass-kissing of Obama and Biden to terrorists, and their selling out of Israel.

I've had to reign myself in several times on this thread. And I am usually quite free with my opinions. Civil discussion with people who do not know me requires restraint. But I have mostly enjoyed this and learned a few things. I believe we should all pray for the days to come.

It pretty much started when the world did, and I don’t expect it to end until the world ends….but I’m wrong a lot.

WOW! This thread has gone around the world and back. I can't keep up anymore.

I generally would like to agree with this but if the US does not assert itself, then others will. Think China and Russia. The game for global domination is going on at as fervent a pace as is was when we were born. If we do don’t influence, they will…and they are better at it in many ways. Israel also has nukes. Arabs are gonna keep up the FA and FO until the Hebrews will no longer be restrained as I’m sure they probably have been in the past, by the US.

I seem to remember that Israel was willing to accept a 2 state solution as long as it included recognition of Israel as a State with a right to exist. Also seems like this was the main sticking point with the rest of them. Is my memory faulty? Whoever above mentioned the mullahs in Iran hit the nail on the head for sure. There's no doubt in my mind that Iran orchestrated this to destabilize the middle east. They knew that when it comes right down to it, regardless of which branch of Islam a country is, they'll all be afraid of siding with Israel against another Muslim country. That's why Saddam target Israel during the first Gulf war, when Israel wasn't even a player. He knew that if Israel joined in, the rest of the Islamic countries would bail and the coalition would fall apart.

I cannot see what you are quoting, but if you want to leave your house open to whomever without vetting them,,,be my guest. as far as casualties from razor buoys, if you break the law you pay a price, just like if they tried to break into your house. Whether they need to be revised or not we have laws regarding immigration, they should be enforced. If you are feeling guilty about European expansion into America, you can return your land to me. I have enough native blood to claim it. As I said before, Israel exists, countries expand, that is the way it works and the PLO and Hamas have constantly attacked Israel. Part of the expansion has been to halt incursions into Israel by making buffer zones.

closing the barn door after the cow got out? another lesson for us to support our rights.

Israel has the right to run their country as they see fit. If the Palestinians don't like it they can leave. Problem is, no other Arab/Muslim country wants them either. If Israel can't control their borders, who comes in, and what they wish to do as a country, then the hoards of Hamas will make a cesspool of Israel.

True, but the Jews living there weren’t enforcing an apartheid ethno-state at the time. That tends to change the dynamic a bit. It is a broad brush because the subject is broad. I’m not attempting to single out Israel as being especially evil or anything, simply speaking of practicalities. You just can’t set up an ethno-state in the middle of a large non-ingroup population without keeping them fully under the thumb. Look at the history of European colonization and the end of that era for example after example of how it goes. I may not support the concept of Zionism, but I don’t blame the Zionists for understanding the assignment. To bring it closer to home, look at the history of this nation as it relates to the native Americans. Native tribes had to be thoroughly subjugated to allow for the creation of what became the United States. Folks get squeamish talking about it these days, but it is empirically the truth. *When I refer to Zionism and Zionists, that’s not an antisemitic shorthand for “the Jews”. I’m speaking of it in the definitional terms of it as a nationalist movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism Equating criticisms of Zionism or Israel with antisemitism or hatred of Jewish people as a whole is a reductive position that I think harms the ability to substantively discuss the issues involved.*

Ok, if y'all are finished acting like 3rd graders and stop throwing #### at each other, can we get back to the topic at hand and discuss it like rational adults? Greg makes a valid point. I don't remember when or how the U.S. became Globocop, but almost every time it happens it turns into a #### show. OTOH: Israel is our ally. They need, at the very least, our moral support. Arguing if the nation should even exist is a moot point. They're there and they intend to stay. I fully support Israel and I do believe that they can deal with this without any help from us. If needed, I can see the U.S. providing medicine, food, etc to help the population. We might even get away with providing air support. But I greatly fear that if U.S. boots touch the ground, WW III will start. What we're dealing with here is a religious war. When religion is involved. no amount of facts, figures or common sense will make a bit of difference. Both sides believe God is on their side. Our best option is to just stand back and let 'em slug it out. Holy cow! While I was writing this at least a half dozen more posts have been made. Hot topic for sure.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Oh, and I forgot... moderators are people too and get to have opinions, Karen.

Does the apartment I have inside your head rent-free also come with furniture??

I can tell you one thing I've learned about Chuck. His opinions are not always mainstream, and I don't always agree with them, but I can't recall one that wasn't well thought out and gave me pause to look at a subject in a totally new light.

You’re right that the prohibition only completely works when the ban is complete. It always leaks in around the edges though and sometimes something gets big enough that we have to at least attempt to make space for it. I’m personally always hopeful that things remain respectful. Sadly, I’m mostly wrong. Sometimes I’m not though. I think I remember the Ukraine thread dying out instead of being closed even with some widely diverging opinions there. That was a pretty good one. You are wrong about the first part of your first sentence. Your opinion does matter here.

Sometimes you need to figure what might be prevented into the bid cost. I once paid a guy $400 to remove a limb. That sounds ridiculous, but it had to go, and the odds of me making a trip to the emergency room after attempting it myself made it seem much more reasonable after thinking about it for a while. He had the knowledge and equipment to do it safely. I had neither.

You certainly got your money's worth. It's good to recognize a company that doesn't attempt to rip you off and gives good service for good money.

This is a hilariously bad twisting of the things I’ve actually said combined with a supremely sillier attempt to put some things in my mouth I didn’t even come close to saying. It’s also hilarious to me how even the mildest criticism of Israel, or questioning if the US’s absolute support is actually in our best interest or not gets one labeled as an anti-Semite or worse. It’s ok though. I’m used to this tactic as I’ve been dealing with it from arguing with leftists for years on the internet. “Maybe we should deal with our logistics and energy infrastructure before we send tens of billions to Ukraine in a proxy war.” ”Why do you want Russia to win, you Putin stooge?” “Maybe we should put our citizens first and secure our borders?” ”Why do you hate Mexicans, you racist?” ”I’m not sure our domestic social safety net is sustainable.” “Why do you want old and poor people to starve you heartless SOB?” It’s just plain funny to me.

and we seem to be focused on the one that ain't.

Not bait - reality.