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I couldn't pass this up for the price. I've never seen a "tacticool" over under but here it is. Mossberg HS-12

We do not have a duty to retreat, (stand your ground), but we do have a duty NOT to do anything to escalate a confrontation. The question that the prosecutor and subsequent jury to answer is, did the OP escalate, or even initiate, the confrontation by flipping the bird at the horn-honker? I think that reasonable people would at most rebut receiving the finger with an FU of their own in return, and not see it as an escalation; therefore, they'd see trying to break into the vehicle as an unreasonable escalation in the horn-honker's response. Does anyone want to risk their freedom on that? When you illegally gain entry into a occupied vehicle you are "car-jacking" under the law which authorizes deadly force in this state. It is no different than you standing inside your house and flipping off someone through the window. It doesn't give that person cause to break into your house in return.

A cameo appearance being put in by a DLB ( @Grand Torino) trench knife.

The MP5 just keeps getting better.

Wife and I are a little sore and have some bruises but overall doing good. Driver of the Corvette was ok as well. Thanks.

Who give a rats rear end what china thinks about private gun ownership. The real enemy of private gun ownership is the dem/prog/soc/comm's who are in the chin's pocket & who many here support & voted for.

Personal opinion follows. Back in the turbulent 1960's, My Dad, a pretty smart man I later found out, raised Hell over the "Japanese buying up America!" Buying buildings, land, whole companies, just anything they could. He said back then that they would own this nation in 50 years. I guess he was a Nationalist before it was cool. Well, I don't know what the level of Japanese ownership is today, except for the failed Nakatomi Corporation. I'm sure it's still a pretty fair amount. But what Dad didn't see coming was the Chinese. Even though he fought the Chinese communists/ala Korean Communists in 1950-52, he thought the real threat came from Russia. I guess most people did back then. Even in his short lifetime, he was cut down by lung cancer; Dad always said that people needed to wake up and see what was happening. Dad thought that buying anything not USA made was a horrible sin, and an insult to all who had fought for this Nation. He said we were just giving away our country, a dollar at a time. Well, I think he was right back then, and are still doing it. One personal purchase of cheap, WW imported goods at a time. But it seems that the average people are just small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. We buy small and in most cases, think small. It's the politicians who are selling the country now, not a dollar at a time, but by the millions at a stroke of the pen or a back-room handshake. And it doesn't seem to be all that uncommon anymore. I'm sorry Dad isn't here now, but so glad he doesn't have to see what his people, his country, has become and where it seems to be headed.

Needs a lever

He was right.

We would all like to have a blueprint of what the law requires in any given situation to determine if we can legally use deadly force. We don’t have that. The closest we have is this… Deadly force is justified if a reasonable person believes deadly force is required to prevent death or great bodily harm.”. There are many variations on that wording. We have these discussions/arguments/bickering all the time here. And that’s a good thing. People need to understand all the ins and outs. Two of the most misunderstood terms I see in these discussions is usually “Castle Doctrine” and “Duty to Retreat”. The Castle Doctrine does not create a free fire zone; you can still be charged. And Tennessee doesn’t need to tell you that you don’t have a duty to retreat because as best I can tell; they never had had that as a requirement. Those laws are generally in states that at one time had a duty to retreat. “Reasonable Person” is a Judge or jury, if you go to trial. They will decide if what you did was “reasonable”. What you did will be judged by strangers that will make decisions that could alter your life and the lives of your family. The responding Officers, The investigators, The DA, and ultimately a Judge or Jury, that have hours or even months to decide what you had to decide in seconds will determine your fate. Every case is different. Times are changing. In the past when a criminal got killed committing a violent act; no one really cared. Nowadays if it’s a cop doing the killing; the left wants them charged even when they were clearly in danger. And we have seen that happen when it shouldn’t have. They will certainly apply that same standard to armed citizens killing criminals. “It’s better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6” is a stupid statement. It’s better to not be charged, period. If you are charged with murder you will get exactly the amount of justice you can afford. That would financially destroy most of us.

Well said.

I think China has more invested into the US political class then anyone not in the "club" knows. So much in fact I think if you were to just tell someone it would be considered a "conspiracy theory".

Very glad you are all safe. But... How in the heck did that older model vette hit so high on the liftgate of your Acadia? You'd think he had jumped a ramp to hit there! Is your axle broke or just the tire torn off? Sorry, old habits die hard. Sold parts to repair shops for a long time, and saw a lot of strange hits. Always wondering how it happened. Still can't see something like this and not mentally start to write a parts order. lol

7F79F8C9-92A6-4B47-A46C-D68AA71AAFBD.MOV

Amen to that.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not kicking this dead horse anymore.

There is an old saying, "A small price to pay for freedom"...somehow I don't think this is what it was originally referring to.

The danger lies in the UN small arms treaty that Trump pulled out of and said it would never happen on his watch....after Obama signed it in what....2013? Get ready for Obama 2.0 folks. Obama did an end around sweep to get his third term. High taxes, high fuel prices when fracking gets chopped which means higher prices on everything moved by truck which is everything we buy.

Woke up to realize that I did not buy pre sliced hog jowl yesterday. One of GT's fine knives came to the rescue!

This may be one of the best threads on TGO I've read in over six and a half years hanging out on this site. Very cool to be able to read the vignette and replies presented. @MarkSas others have said, thank you for being so open and self-reflecting on the incident. We're learning from the benefit of your experience and the conversation it sparked. It's a great benefit to all of us. I think you handled it as well as can be expected when presented with a threat. I also think you have a lesson learned on flipping people off, But these are two separate points in my mind since your actions don't lend any sort of justification to the person's actions in response. Giving the guy a warning may well have had a butterfly effect that kept him alive, and you out of legal hell. I hope for their sake it was a wake-up call about how to live with others...but I'll not get my hopes up. I'm also grateful to learn about these what you experienced with the vehicle lock...I'm still driving a Ford Ranger I bought in 2002, so that a door will unlock after putting the vehicle in park is (disturbing) news to me. Glad there is a way to fix that after purchase.

Just wanted to give a head's up about Hi-Tek coated 125 gr 9mm bullets I ordered from Hoosier Bullets and Training. These cost me $67.00/1000. ($75.00 with shipping). I ordered them on 12/22 and had them about a week later. They seem to be somewhat hit or miss on their stock, but update frequently. I've shot many thousands of Powder Coated bullets, but these are my first using the Hi-Tek process. I like 'em! I loaded up some using 5.0 grs of Unique and 5.5 grs Unique (It's the powder I have the greatest supply of currently and I like Unique anyway, so there's that). My Shield likes the 5.0 grs best. This should run around 1050 fps out of my G19, which I usually use to chrono my handloads. I actually need to chrono these so I'm not just guessing... I shot them at ranges from 3 yards to 15 yards today in my Glock 19 and S&W Shield. No issues in any manner. I know components of all sorts are scarce these days. I'm glad I learned of these folks. Anyone else using Hi-Tek coated bullets? If so, what makers or do you coat your own? Please ignore the notes on the Everglades and Rocky Mountain Reloads...previous range session notes...

You need to put a shock wave grip on that thing!!!

Two shots ain't very "tacticool"

Wow. That corvette looks even worse....

I would like to have one in 20 Ga with wood furniture.

Decided to organize a few things to help in the event of my unexpected demise. Used a 3-ring binder with tabs to for insurances, accounts/passwords/contact numbers etc., SSI info, list of high value items the family might sell for a dollar at a yard sale if they didn't know better, locations of stuff no one knows about, and a Word Table inventory of all weapons with current values. Those with sentimental value are indicated in the event it matters. I included a short list of contacts that I trust to aid the family in marketing if needed. This is kept in the vault.

Where is that damn asteroid?

Just want to emphasize that banging on a car is not justification for use of deadly force. Sucks, but experts have expounded on this since the riots. Violating the passenger compartment, trying to turn the vehicle over, boxed in where you can't escape is another matter. Also must remember circumstances will vary, especially in a group.

I bought a still, gona make hand sanitizer, then trade it for plastic.

and we have a winner!!!

Get yourself a dash cam with panorama all around the inside of the car. Not that I'm giving legal advice but if you need to involve the police be the first to call, and always say up front YOU were attacked. Don't mention guns. Someone ripping your door open or banging on your car is an attack. They showed they meant to do you harm. Edit: a good peice of advice i was given (or atleast i think its good) if you can drive. Drive. If they get out of their car drive off. Through them around them whatever. Drive off. If they're trying to enter your vehicle report it as an attack. My girlfriend and I have a rehersed plan where if anything were to happen she records with my phone and calls 911 with hers. She says its an attack and where we are and keeps them up to date as long as im dealing with whatever the "it" is. The other thing I think is important is to always act as though you're being filmed. If a jury watched this happen as movie who's side would they be on?

With how much China owns in the US one might say they are tending to their business. Not a happy thought by any means.

I thank you for this excellent post. You have made a lot of us here think about and discuss a potentially life altering event that could happen at anytime to anyone of us.

Hate to say it but if you kept that middle finger holstered the whole situation could have been prevented. Sure I’ve done it. But in today’s day and time ignore the idiots and be like a duck and let it roll off a bit.

Thank you all for the discussion, as I have learned from the group. I hope this never happens to any member, and can now from experience say, "Turn the other cheek", as legally I might of been justified, the reality would have set in that my one finger salute set in motion the events that took a life. Even though the other party played a part, and had no business trying to come into the car, I am responsible personally, even if not legally, for my actions, and testament. I hope this experience, can be used as a lesson, and maybe save a member from being put in a similar situation, or having to live with a decision.

In my youth the answer was both. That was until I experienced high maintenance.

I belong to the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Net. 360-978-5200. They have a good program (IMO the best benefit for the money)for those who join and the cost is much more likeable. Call and talk to them. It is not insurance but they do the same as others insurance companies. I pay 85.00 per year and I think the first year is a little higher. I been a member for years, and consider it just like homeowners insurance. My advice on your incident, forget the one finger salute next time. You did well except for that one item. glad it turned out for the best. A lot of hotheads out there who are wearing a chip on their shoulders this-day-in-time. "Best to turn the other cheek", if possible, then go on your way. Edited to ADD; Call ACLDN 360-978-5200 and ask them for a copy of a short booklet, "What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self-Defense Law." They will send it to you at NO charge to you, and with NO obligation. The book is one of the best I have seen to be a short education on self defense law. ITS FREE GUYS. 20 pages of great info. MarkS, you can weigh your incident with true knowledge on the S D Law. You can see why your salute could be detrimental to your case. Get the book guys. FREE

This discussion made me think of one of the statutes TN has about self defense. Would flipping off a person be considered provokng the other person's use of force? Is being flipped off grounds for LEGALLY inflicting serious bodily harm or death against another person? I guess what I'm asking is by giving a gesture, expletive, etc, would that person be considered the aggressor? I would like to think not but IANAL. Below is what I found. e) The threat or use of force against another is not justified: (1) If the person using force consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other individual; (2) If the person using force provoked the other individual's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless: (A) The person using force abandons the encounter or clearly communicates to the other the intent to do so; and (B) The other person nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the person;

I figured Dwayne Johnson loved 2020, just like he loves Biden/Harris.

Flipping off a cop is stupid. A cop thinking he can stop a car with no probable cause is stupid. But teach your kids that it probably won’t work out as well for them as it did for that woman.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/15/703665710/police-officer-cant-pull-over-driver-for-giving-him-the-finger-court-rules

Just a thought here. Had you not flipped the guy off, would the rest of the scenario have played out as it did? I'm generally a pretty calm man, but having someone say "FU" to my face, through words or gestures, really, REALLY ticks me off. Frustrations can be high in heavy traffic, and sometimes a simple thing like waving the guy on by, right of way or not, can diffuse a situation such as you describe. FAR better, in my opinion, to avoid the confrontation in the first place. A honked horn is one thing, a bullet in the chest another. Mind you, I am NOT excusing the passenger's actions. If someone tries to get into my car my reaction will be similar to yours, but what I am saying is that your gesture contributed.

Soldiers of the 10th Mountain Division at the U.S. training in mountaineering

China can kiss me Blarney Stones.

F@$k China and the horse their Government rode in on.

I open my den door & go: "Yep...... that's a f#@&k load of guns!"