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Yep! And now is a great time to buy other things. Magazines, accessories, even some guns. People are focusing so much on ammo right now that some retailers are offering smoking-good deals on the other stuff.

Remember these times friends and stock the hell up when prices come back to reality so you won’t be searching the next time (there’s always a next time).

Finished up my AR10 build tonight. Although I originally wanted a 308, had to settle with a 6.5 Creed chambering. I like how it turned out . Shes a heavy heifer but the 20" pipe should produce a decent accuracy.

There's a whole bunch of reasons feeding into the shortage: Demand is at tenfold levels for normal years as a result of COVID and civil unrest; it's also an election year which feeds demand. Around four million new gun owners are also feeding into this. The major four manufacturers produce about 8 Billion rounds a year for the US consumer market. Production has been disrupted by COVID and requirements for social distancing in facilities. There is a shortage of raw materials. Even though mining was designated an essential business, production is down so brass, lead, copper etc are more expensive and in shorter supply. Primers are still pretty much hand made and it is not a short process to train people to do it so this is a big issue. Trucking is also down about 5% so moving material around the country is also feeding the problem. Manufacturers have ramped up shifts where possible but don't want to invest into new production lines for what is potentially a short term problem. There are really only two makers of large scale ammunition production equipment and it is not cheap. This situation really is a perfect storm and is unprecedented. On the plus side, if Trump wins, we should expect normality to return sometime around summer of 2021. If Biden wins it could be a lot longer, if it ever does return. There's a very good YouTube video which goes through this in a lot more detail but I can't find the darn thing right now. Will try find it and post. EDIT - Found it! This is long but well worth a watch:

"Better to have and not need, than need and not have" I'm now 68 years old [an old man], and I don't recognize the nation I grew up in. This will most likely turn into another long rant. We live in a dangerous world, and it's getting more dangerous by the day. Lawlessness, protests and rioting is breaking out in many places; some of our local, city, state governments, federal representatives and citizenry are supporting and condoning those organizations illegal actions and not being prosecuted. When the police arrest these criminals, the DA'S and prosecutor's are refusing to charge them. Jails are being emptied via this purported pandemic. Law enforcement officers are quitting and retiring by the groves in protest, as well as blue flu and refusing to do certain things. Major efforts are under way to de-fund a variety of police departments and services, on and on... I have never seen more hate, intolerance and division in my lifetime, it's everywhere and no one is exempt. All this in addition to the regular crimes of opportunity, home invasions, murders, drug cartels / addicts and the mentally ill we have contended with. We're all aware of the hate crimes committed nationally and in Tennessee, of churches, synagogues, mosques and places of worship in the recent past. I'm a member of a small country Baptist church. Attending last Sunday evening service, I noticed a picture on the bulletin board as I walked through the foyer; I wondered what that was all about? Before service began, our Pastor had that picture in hand and told us all about it. The Pastor had picked up some church material from our district office, and given the picture and what's happening. Some guy is making his rounds around our area, barging in to worship services and disrupting them; yelling everyone of you is going to Hell. This person was identified by the police and has a long history of mental illness and violent behavior. The police are currently trying to locate him. This in addition to all the previous mentions. With this covid-19 scare going on, church attendance has been drastically reduced as it is. With the few people their last Sunday evening; was a young lady with her two children, and she asked a question that was and has been on everyone's mind; she asked, "do we have any church security?" Well, our new Pastor fumbled around and hee hawed and sort of danced around the question. Our congregation has legitimate safety concerns. Our Pastor is relatively new, replacing our previous Pastor, and not knowing the history of this question brought up and acted upon several years ago. He basically said; before service begins the doors are locked and someone was at the door to monitor it, and let late arrivals in. Then a brief mention was made by me that there were a few folks in the congregation that had HCP'S and carried in church. I didn't mention I was one of them. In the past the pastors and congregation have encouraged and supported its members to be legally armed, and it's still the attitude and in force. During that string of church shootings in Tennessee, Texas and elsewhere, our member were very concerned and afraid, and rightfully so. We adopted the policy to lock and secure the doors when service began, and had a volunteer to monitor and open the door for late comers and monitor who entered if they were strangers. We installed eight Harbor Freight security camera's; of which four cameras have already failed, and the two people who knew how to operate the system and software are no longer with us. We invited at that time our county Sheriff, Monty Belew, who since just retired, to come and give us a security inspection and advice. Many churches in our area did the same thing. He came with several of his deputies and gave us some pointers to improve on, and we had a question and answer session [but he's not a lawyer]. I posed the question of "church security teams", his thoughts and the legalities thereof. He cautioned that if we formally adopted a "church security team" we could find ourselves in hot water, legality issues and lawsuit's as an organization, should this security team have to act in one way or another. Being a small church, we cannot afford too much, and loss of a civil suit would most likely close our doors. It was more or less realized that it was up to the individual alone, to decide what if anything they were going to do security wise. With a new Pastor, new members and attendees, and length of time its been since the preceding, we need to revisit and update everyone's security concerns. Schools and churches are soft targets for cowards as we all know. Security team training and qualifications, aside from legal matters: I'm a combat veteran with 20 years of military service. In my military tenure I qualified expert with rifle and pistol. I'm a lifelong hunter. I'm a member of the local county gun club and shoot frequent rifle and pistol matches and continually practice, a former IDPA Range officer and current USPSA Range Officer. I'm better than average in competition shoots and scores. All that to say; that my training, experience and background are perishable and doesn't translate to squat pertaining to qualifications, skill and ability, to participate in a security detail; especially with my age and associated physical restrictions. These other church members that CCW to church are about my age also. In the years I've lived in this area, I've never seen one of them at any of the ranges around here or at the local gun shops? I can't help but to wonder, if they even know the four rules for safe gun handling, do any practice or train at all? What would it be like if anything were to occur; what would they do and how? What would I do, and how? Which lead me back to, "better to have and not need, than need and not have". I attend church to worship my Lord and Savior and dress in a respectful and honoring manner. I won't go to church dressed and equipped like G.I. Joe, but I think in my case it might be prudent to make a couple of changes in my church and EDC gear. Past practice has been most of the time, but not all, going to town, church or short errands; just grabbing my selected EDC pistol and nothing else, maybe sticking it in the console because I'm lazy and in a hurry. I very seldom carry my smart phone anywhere, because it's a hassle and an inconvenience and I always leave it on the kitchen table and walk out. Our little country church does not have any phone at all. What if any emergency occurred and I needed to call someone? Am I lazy or what? I don't know how many times I wished I had a pen and little note pad to write down something so I wouldn't forget, a phone number or information to retrieve later. The last thing I ever want to do is have to draw my weapon, and worse yet use it. Is it as or more likely another option might be more suitable and prudent to use rather than a firearm? I can think of a number of scenario's where pepper spray might be more appropriate and lessen any criminal and civil liabilities. It at least gives another option to escape or gain control? So, the changes I'm going to make are: In addition to always remembering to take and have my firearm on me everywhere I go, and not leaving it home for short trips, to my mailbox 200 yards away, etc. [trouble finds you and it's fast and never expected]. To be prepared for a worst case scenario and have a spare magazine in my pocket, vest or mag carrier. I'm undecided about carrying a small backup weapon, unless or until society and lawlessness gets worse. Start to carry my cell phone everywhere I go for emergencies [would also be an excellent tool for video evidence and documentation]. And lastly a decent CCW vest that covers my IWB or OWB holster, looks nice and not tactical, that holds my phone, pen & small tablet and some gizmos. I'd like to hear your thoughts if your EDC has changed from last year, and why. For those of you who attend church; I'd like to know how you handle church security if any? Your thoughts, plans and actions with the aftermath of legal and civil proceedings resulting from any confrontations and actions taken in the event that force is used in your church?

Who needs sights when you have 20 rounds? ..... Still a tad undecided what i will top it with.. Probably a BDC scope from Nikon or comparable.. DPMS lower with a 20" Upper from KM Tactical out of Missouri. (Highly Recommend these guys if you are in the market for parts... Fast turn around with quality parts.. 3rd build ive gotten materials from them)

I darn near always carry at church, though I haven't been in the building but twice in the last 6 months. Our church is split into 2 buildings across the street from each other. I know we employ one off duty LEO on Sundays, I do not know if there is formal security team or plan. A few church staff have walkie-talkies, but that's all I've seen. All exterior doors are supposed to be locked except those with greeters. Ive been a greeter on many occasions and have been told nothing other than to close the door when the service starts. The building I'm usually in is very old and virtually indefensible. It's been added onto several times, is 3 levels built into a hill, and there's way more exterior doors than could be covered, not to mention all the ground level windows. My guess is the staff thinks a police car sitting in the parking lot at the other building is a talisman that keeps the bad people away. That said, I do not know of any instances of security concerns. Oh yeah... there are a couple very good podcasts on shooters Nation regarding church security. https://www.shootersnation.com/podcast/017-church-safety-security-teams-with-us-navy-seal-william/

Just having a democrat running for President is enough to set many off on a hoarding spree.

I'm probably a day late in finding these videos but if any you haven't seen them, they are worth watching.

almost 2 weeks old now but Thankful for a new healthy baby boy

While I’ve still been purchasing ammo (at reasonable prices because I refuse to pay panic prices) I’ve also picked up a bunch of target stands, shot timer, a SIRT gun, dry fire mag, and some electronic targets because I’m going to get serious about my shooting. It’s past time to stop shooting and start training. I’m going to make the ammo I do use count for more than turning money into noise.

Looks like it really has gone missing this time.

There may come a time you wish you had them back.

I echo Greg’s sentiment. Try shooting them. Especially that cap and ball revolver. But if you are dead set on selling them, legally they aren’t firearms. They are worth more with what they can do than the money they are worth. If nothing else hang them on the wall if you don’t care to shoot them. Family guns can’t be replaced.

I think they’d average a hundred bucks apiece or so, as they are all modern. The Knight would bring a bit more. They’d sell, and they’re just like selling a car wheel....no dealers, background checks, etc. Why don’t you read up on them and shoot them a bit before parting with them? A lot of us really enjoy shooting them, and they can be about as accurate as many modern firearms. Their utility afar outweighs their current value in my opinion. Just he sure to thoroughly clean and oil them after firing, as powder and caps are corrosive! P.S. Make damn sure he didn’t leave any of them loaded before attempting to load them.

The new shrug just doesn’t cut it. What do you think @hughd? “Modern” emojis are simply too bland and generic. Not to mention impossible to see and interpret sometimes. But it is what it is.

The value of used muzzleloaders are determined almost entirely by the condition of the bore. They're a pain to clean so many have very rusty bores and the fact that you can't "see" through them makes it hard to determine the condition.

I recently bought some ammo in bulk via a friend at a national distributor. I paid maybe $75 more per 1000 rounds this month than I did back in February. He told me that Winchester and Fiocchi prices were up nearly 30%, however. I say this for two reasons: 1. There is still ammo in the supply pipeline. Where it quickly disappears is at the retail level because people are panic-buying. Remember when morons depleted the national supply of toilet paper earlier this year? Same damn thing. 2. The major price increases are also happening at the retail level. Some retailers are taking advantage of the panic and they are easy to spot (Cheaper Than Dirt?). Reasonable retailers are just implementing reasonable price increases because they are paying more themselves. We may see overall significantly higher prices in the future, though, because eventually the ammo that is still reasonably priced at the wholesale level will start going up in price as well. Last point: This is the next big problem. The ammo manufacturers are already feeling it. We'll see it reflected in retail soon. https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/great-primer-shortage-2020/383204

Cant go wrong in these days to think about these things. I err on the side of carrying a little too much stuff. Seems like there was a really good podcast on our sister site here about church security issues. You might check it out, Also, I think you are right about liability and also the training status of fellow churchgoers. I'd suggest seeing about forming a committee of like minded folks who might be interested in helping. At the least, I would want to know where the other 'guns' are in case I had to sue mine there, and have some kind of idea of what they will do. Lastly, I saw this online and it might give you some ideas: https://sheepdogchurchsecurity.net/church-security-guide/

Firearms maker Remington Outdoor Co. has agreed to sell its ammunition business out of bankruptcy to South Carolina-based investment firm JJE Capital Holdings LLC for $65 million plus the assumption of liabilities, subject to better offers. The JJE offer came in the form of a stalking-horse bid, setting a floor on the sale price for Remington’s ammunition business, which the company has been marketing while in chapter 11. Remington filed for bankruptcy protection in July and has been open to selling its ammunition and firearms operations to pay off its debt. The proposed deal outlined in papers filed Tuesday in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Decatur, Ala., covers the design and manufacturing of ammunition sold under the Remington and Barnes Bullets brands and includes production facilities in Arkansas and Utah. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/remington-agrees-to-sell-ammunition-business-including-barnes-bullets-for-65-million/

I’m a Dallas fan, but I had to laugh. Disclaimer: I don’t roll like this guy

Find out how the repos are disposed of in your area. Not being in a hurry will usually pay dividends.

I wish they did. I'm starting to have to do more and more preventative maintenance on my parts.

Great, another update and more mass confusion, endless grumbling for at least a week. . Hey that semi-colon thing works. LOL. JK on the upgrades, it's part of life. They don't have any upgrades available for body parts that don't hurt for us old farts do they??? LOL

I always thought there were way too many emojis anyway. The legacy ones were about all I ever used. The rest just got in the way and were annoying. I'd like to see you dump all of those. BTW: need a legacy version of the roll eyes emoji. I like that one and would use it pretty regular. The other versions offered just didn't work for me. :rolleyes

https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-upper-receiver-groups-300-blackout/ BCM is nice. Doesn't look like they come with a charging handle and BCG though.

Ballistic Advantage would get my vote if I was shopping for a complete upper. https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/ar-complete-uppers

This might turn out to be a bit lengthy but, this is the detailed process I used to select a provider. One of the things I had to keep in mind was; to compare apples with apples, because most of these companies have different levels of coverage for different things. I also had to keep in mind the likely civil aftermath and lawsuit of a self defense encounter. As far as recommendations, I really can't give any. The several I checked out seemed to be reputable and have good published programs. I watch a lot of Youtube gun videos and a number of the channels refer you to or recommend a certain CCW insurance. Some of them don't give full disclosure about if they are sponsored or supported by that company or if they have that insurance free, as part of their sponsorship. So I gave that little weight. For me, one of the biggest criteria was their performance, court defense record, satisfaction and timeliness of services rendered and provided. Problem is [a good thing]; as far as I could find out, only 'one' of these CCW insurance companies had a client [test case] and went through the entire process and were successful in getting their client vindicated. Perhaps someone will correct me if my research and thoughts are inaccurate. How I narrowed the field down: Naturally price was a first and major consideration. I found that between all the CCW insurance providers, there wasn't a huge disparity in pricing. So far I haven't eliminated anyone off my list. Then I mentally put myself in the position of; oh no, I just found myself in the wrong place at the wrong time, and had no other choice than to pull out my weapon to protect my wife and I. What city, county or state was I at when this occurred, is it a red or blue culture? In my made up scenario in a worst case event and I was charged with a felony crime; now what's important to me? What do I need to immediately do? How difficult is it going to be from behind bars to do what needs to be done? Who do I call first, I hadn't planned ahead for this unlikely event and have no lawyer. I don't even have the 10% readily available cash for the $250,000.00 bail levied against me. Of critical importance for my personal finances and situation would be; to have "one number" to call to get my defense rapidly going and get bailed out of jail ASAP. I hear jail food is not so good, and Bubba wants a new girlfriend? It's critical to me for the CCW insurance company to pay as much or all costs for bail, attorney retainer, etc. upfront. Some of these companies will reimburse you after the fact with exemptions and provisions. I can't stress enough for my personal situation, how important it is to have all costs associated with arrest and being charged paid up front. But anyway, I eventually narrowed it down to CCW Safe and USCCA as best meeting my needs, should I ever be unfortunate enough to need them. Down to two, now I'm making some progress, now what criteria do I use to select one? All things being relatively equal now with pricing, coverage and upfront cost of my defense and bail covered; I looked at the perks offered . By far USCCA offers its members a lot of video training and related written articles [of course it doesn't replace the real thing] and a wealth of information on their website. So that was the deciding factor. I selected the Platinum level membership for a year for $347.00 plus tax. I believe they offer monthly plans also. As I mentioned in another post; I never felt the need for this type of insurance because of the odds of ever needing it. I don't go to stupid places, at stupid times, with stupid people. Crime, victims and the odds of becoming a victim have exponentially increased; due to the lawlessness outbreak everywhere, even in small town USA. Governor's, Mayor's, politicians and prosecutor's [with a political agenda] siding with and supporting the organized and financed criminals and rioters; releasing them from jail and not prosecuting crimes. These groups are financed by the likes of Hollywood, George Soros, the elites, liberals, news media and anti-Americans. In addition to the "regular" crime by the mentally ill, drug addicts, gang-bangers, cartels, illegal aliens and common criminals; we now have another layer of criminality to contend with. In my opinion, the 'odds' of becoming a victim has dramatically increased. Disclaimer: Years ago I was a member of USCCA when they were introducing their insurance and many of us were not happy with their changes and President and founder Tim Schmidt and his vision for his company. I've since changed my mind and attitude. If you got this far, you're a better person than me; I fell asleep writing this half way through...

Armor is like a gun, some is better than none, but it's not the be all end all tool. I've always been indifferent to it for civilian use (though I surely want it commercially available for anyone who wants it). Bullets just don't bounce off of those things like they would Superman...it's just to protect vital organs from a shot that would kill. If you're going into a situation where you're wearing body armor, you should hopefully have good medical support and expedient transport to a facility that can handle trauma. If you feel the need to protect vital organs, your extremities and lower body (especially if you've got a plate carrier that doesn't go below the naval) are still at risk, and without someone to deal with that trauma right away, along with a care team at an ER equivalent, you can take a turn for the worst fast. Now, for those taking the streets...they're probably thinking about protection from less than lethal rounds, which means some cheap stuff would serve the purpose.

How they got there is irrelevant. Its a job, same as garbage men and ditch diggers. You were elected to enforce the laws on the books, not as your political preference dictates. Same for cops. Voluntarily put yourself in that position. If you're willing to let your personal opinions affect whether you do your job or not, you shouldn't be in that position. I believe that was Link2ks point?

I know this is a dead thread but video has been removed just FYI.

Here's a better "play by play " of the incident...... https://americanhandgunner.com/the-ayoob-files/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/ THE LESSONS OF TIM GRAMINS By Massad Ayoob Situation: Backup is racing to help you as you shoot it out with a heavily armed bank robber, but you’re alone for now and running low on ammo. Lesson: What’s on your person may be all you’ll have to fight with, so carry enough. Solid positions and aimed fire deliver fight-stopping hits … and knowing what you’re fighting for will make you fight harder. August 25, 2008. It’s a sunny and beautiful late afternoon in Skokie, one of the separately incorporated communities surrounding the city of Chicago, Illinois. Of Skokie Police Department’s 124 officers, about 15 are patrolling on the street during the three-to-eleven shift. Inside the Crown Vic Police Interceptor squad car of Officer Tim Gramins, the dedicated ISPERN radio — the Illinois State Police Emergency Radio Network, reserved for serious emergencies — comes to life. A bank has been robbed in nearby Northbrook. The suspect is a black male, average size, driving a white Pontiac. A witness has reported a possible plate number, from a series tracked to the city of Chicago. This puts Skokie in between. SPD units proceed to the Edens Expressway, I-94 South, hoping to interdict. Two Skokie units pull over a man and vehicle fitting the description but quickly determine he’s not the suspect they’re looking for. It is then Gramins spots a white Grand Prix, with a lone driver who fits the description. They make eye contact with each other, and Gramins recognizes an expression he has seen many times. He calls it “the ‘Oh, boy, here’s the police’ look.” The man floors his accelerator with a sudden lane change, and the chase is on. In Pursuit Hitting his lights and siren, Gramins radios in his situation. He knows other units will be responding, but has no way to determine how soon backup will catch up with him, particularly in late rush hour traffic. The suspect veers his getaway car across three lanes of traffic to hit the Touhy Avenue exit east, and then bangs a right onto Skokie Boulevard. In the powerful CVPI, Gramins expertly remains on his tail. The chase swerves onto Estes Street after a block, through the intersection of Keating, then right on Kilpatrick. And then, the fugitive springs the trap. Ambush! Here, in a quiet suburban neighborhood right out of a Leave It To Beaver rerun, Gramins sees his quarry slam on his brakes and come to an abrupt stop in the street. Action beats reaction: Gramins responds quickly but by the time his squad car has stopped it is only 15 feet behind the fugitive’s vehicle. The white car’s door pops open and out comes the suspect. Gramins sees a silver-colored auto pistol in the man’s hand as it rises over the steering wheel, coming out the door, and swinging toward him. As this is happening, training and practice send Gramins’ left hand across his torso to swiftly release his seat belt, and his right hand to unholster his GLOCK 21 service pistol. But Ray Maddox, a 37-year-old Gangster Disciple gang member who has sworn to kill the next cop who stops him rather than go back behind bars, gets the first shots off. Bam, bam, bam, bam! Gramins can hear and even count all four of them, can see Maddox running toward him firing one-handed. Now, though, the cop’s own gun is up in both hands and he fires right through the windshield, indexed on his target, tracking the gunman as he approaches the patrol car door, still shooting. Incredibly — perhaps, for Gramins, even miraculously — both men now run out of ammunition and go simultaneously to slidelock. Second Magazine Both combatants react instantly to the change in the situation. Maddox spins around and runs back to the Pontiac. Gramins explodes out the driver’s door of the squad car, seeking to escape the trap his vehicle has become, and runs between the cars to the right. He’s reloading on the run, ejecting the spent magazine, slapping in a fresh one, and closing the slide. At approximately this time in the gun battle, he is able to radio in: the suspect is out of his vehicle, shots have been fired and he (Gramins) needs help. The gunfire has captured the attention of the residents on this quiet street. A 12-year-old boy skateboarding on the sidewalk runs into his house and tells his parents, “There’s a police officer in the street being shot at, call 9-1-1!” Gramins will later tell American Handgunner, the boy is “the bravest kid I’ve ever known.” Gramins can hear the boy’s dad yelling to him like a cheering section, “Get him! Shoot him!” In the heat of the moment, Gramins has time to take some comfort in this. Reloaded, he charges the suspect, now on the other side of the vehicles. The officer fires as he goes. He will tell me later, “He (was moving) back toward my car. I don’t think he knew I was off to his left. I charged right at him, and ended up three feet away. I was shooting one-handed when I got close. As I ran toward him firing, I saw no effect.” Third Magazine Seeing his GLOCK at slide lock again, Gramins sprints to an angle where he can get his patrol car between himself and the gunman, who is still shooting at him but with a different pistol. Again the cop is reloading on the run, demoralized his gunfire has done nothing to stop his deadly attacker, and acutely aware he’s on his last magazine. Gramins is now to the right of their two cars, and he sees Maddox is now to the left of his patrol car, using it for cover and crouching down low. An intensively trained SWAT team leader, Gramins tries to use the technique LAPD SWAT employed to successfully neutralize the machinegun-armed suspect Matasureanu in the infamous North Hollywood bank robbery shootout of 1997: he points rather than aims his G21 and fires as he moves, trying to ricochet his bullets under the car and into Maddox’s legs to bring him down. The angle isn’t right, though, and he sees his bullets hitting his own car and front right tire. Time to change the plan, he realizes. Finale Gramins sees a tree between the sidewalk and the cars in the street. He dives prone behind it, and — trained on the precision rifle as a SWAT cop — realizes he now has the best cover and the most solid shooting position he has had since the gunfight began. Maddox has been popping up and shooting at him like a jack-in-the-box and then crouching deep, watching Gramins from under the car. The cop sees Maddox looking at him now from under the police car. Carefully, consciously focusing hard on his front sight, Gramins follows legendary Border Patrol shootist Bill Jordan’s advice (“Take your time, quick!”) and squeezes off three rapid but still carefully-aimed shots, holding on the would-be cop-killer’s head. On the third, Maddox collapses face down. He is no longer shooting. A large pool of blood begins to spread outward from the gunman’s head. Gramins keeps him covered. About a minute later, the first responding officers, Detective (now Sergeant) Barnes and Detective Mendez, arrive. Both are fellow SWAT team members. Gramins feels a sense of relief as the backups kick the downed antagonist’s gun out of his reach, and handcuff him. It’s over. Reconstruction will show from the first shot of the gunfight to the last, 56 seconds have elapsed. During this time 54 pistol shots have been fired, 33 from Gramins’ GLOCK .45, and 21 by Maddox from two pistols. Wound Assessment Raymond Maddox did not survive. Autopsy showed he had been hit by 17 of Gramins’ 230-gr. Speer Gold Dot .45 hollowpoints. Some had hit extremities, including upper limbs as the officer’s bullets tracked up the gunman’s arms while he was firing at the cop. But Maddox had also been hit in one kidney, both lungs … and the heart. All three of Gramins’ last carefully braced, precisely aimed shots had indeed hit the head, but two had smashed into his face and only the last had pierced the brain and ended the fight. Gramins did not emerge entirely unscathed. He caught a bullet fragment in one shin, and bullets going through the glass of the car had sent fragments into his face. He also suffered a significant hearing loss in his left ear, most likely due to firing 13 rounds from his .45 from inside the closed patrol car. He, at the hospital in a room adjacent to where the medicos were trying to save Maddox’s life, also had to hear a doctor angrily cry, “Why did the cop have to shoot him so many times?” If only the physician had known … The shooting death of Raymond Maddox at the hands of Officer Timothy Gramins was ruled a justifiable homicide. No lawsuit was filed. Gramins received multiple awards for his heroism in the encounter and was later promoted to sergeant. Weapon Assessment Both the would-be cop-killer and the officer who neutralized him were heavily armed. They had access to seven loaded firearms between them. Gramins deployed only one; Maddox used two. Maddox opened fire with a stainless steel 9mm auto which Gramins first thought looked like a Taurus copy of a Beretta, but turned out to be a 16-shot S&W Model 5906. It was recovered, empty, from the front seat of Maddox’s Pontiac, its last spent casing stovepiped where Maddox had dumped it as he grabbed his second weapon. It was a Bersa .380 pistol. The .380 was apparently hit and, unknown to the cop, rendered inoperable by one of Gramins’ .45 rounds near the end of the gunfight. Also in the front seat of the gunman’s car was an SKS semiautomatic rifle, fully loaded with a 30-rd. magazine, and in a box. At least one analyst has suggested Gramins’ charging toward Maddox while emptying the second magazine in his GLOCK kept the gunman from accessing the high-powered semiautomatic rifle. Gramins was told later Maddox’s weapons were tied to four homicides in the city of Chicago. Gramins had been carrying his primary sidearm, the 13+1 capacity GLOCK 21, with only 12 rounds per mag because he had found with his magazines, it was sometimes difficult to positively seat them loaded all the way up if the slide was forward. He had the two spare magazines on his duty belt, and also a 9mm subcompact GLOCK 26 backup gun in a holster attached to the Second Chance ballistic vest under his uniform shirt. A Remington 870 pump shotgun loaded with five 12-gauge slugs was racked above him inside the patrol car, and as a SWAT officer, he had an AR-15 in the trunk with several 30-rd. magazines. Like his opponent, he was never able to deploy any of the heavy artillery. Lessons There are many lessons to be learned from Tim Gramins’ incident, some more obvious than others. Carry enough ammunition to finish a worst case scenario fight. After this event, which has been widely publicized among law enforcement, Tim Gramins put his .45 in his gun safe and went with a 9mm. He told me, “We are allowed to pick our weapon. GLOCK, S&W, Beretta and SIG are authorized, and we have our choice of 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, all with department issue Gold Dot ammunition.” His duty pistol is now the GLOCK 17, loaded to full capacity with 17+1 rounds of 124-gr. +P 9mm, backed up by 11 rounds of the same in his GLOCK 26, which of course can feed G17 magazines. A slim-line Safariland triple magazine pouch carries three more 17-rd. mags in uniform, and he carries two 33-rd. 9mm magazines behind the trauma shield of his ballistic vest. This adds up to 146 rounds on tap. A widely-circulated police article by our mutual friend Charles Remsberg made Tim famous in cop circles as the policeman who carries almost 150 rounds of ammo on his person. “I can carry a hundred rounds more ammo, and it only weighs a couple of pounds,” Gramins told American Handgunner. “Round count seems to be skyrocketing in police gun battles, police running out of ammunition. I don’t want to be in such position. I came close to it, with only four rounds left in my GLOCK 21.” The dynamic movement required to escape the kill zone kept Gramins from accessing either the shotgun in the squad car’s cockpit or the AR-15 in its trunk. One lesson this taught him: what you have on your person may be all you have to fight with once a fight goes mobile. Aggressive humans can soak up multiple lethal wounds and still continue homicidal action for surprising periods of time. People have taken multiple, massive wounds even from high powered rifles and shotguns, and stayed in the fight. Contrary to popular belief, a heart shot like the one Maddox sustained well before Gramins’ brain shot killed him does not necessarily guarantee the hoped-for “instant one-shot stop.” The medical journals devoted to treatment of trauma show multiple survivors of gunshot wounds to the heart, and forensic pathologists have recorded numerous cases of people who continued conscious, purposeful, sometimes successfully homicidal actions after being shot in the heart. Even if cardiac function is completely shut down, the recipient of the wound has up to 15 or 16 seconds of action left before blood pressure drops below the level it will no longer sustain consciousness, and not all wounds of the heart cause total shutdown. This appears to have been the case with Raymond Maddox in this shooting, who by the way had a “clean toxicology screen,” which showed no alcohol or drugs on board. Forensic pathologists tell us there is no post-mortem artifact for adrenalin dump, and even if there was, its effect on the given person experiencing it cannot be precisely predicted. This shooting appears to be a classic example. Mortal wounds are not necessarily instantly fatal. The study of gunfights is replete with cases of “men who were dead, but didn’t know it yet.” It was not possible to reconstruct exactly when Maddox took the cardiac hit, but it is absolutely possible he was up and running for almost a minute despite a .45 caliber gunshot wound to the heart before the final bullet to the brain short-circuited his central nervous system and ended the encounter. Training is critical! As a SWAT cop prior to this shooting, Tim had extensive experience shooting through barriers such as windshield glass, from both sides, and this stood him in good stead in the opening of the gunfight when he essentially “broke the ambush” by returning fire through the windshield from the driver’s seat. Extensive Simunitions-based “force on force” role-play had prepared him as best as possible for shooting a murderous criminal who was shooting at him. Know what you’re fighting for! The day of this shooting was the eighth birthday of Tim Gramins’ son. Prior to hearing the emergency call over ISPERN, Tim had been pondering when he could take some break time to buy his son the Star Wars game he wanted for his birthday. Throughout the gunfight, Tim was aware of his need to survive for his son and for the rest of his family. He credits this determination for seeing him through the deadly gun battle. The very term “gunfight” is really a misnomer: the guns don’t fight, the people do, and those who know what they’re fighting for have a powerful psychological advantage. Finally, the lost lesson of this incident seems to be the importance of aimed fire. At the end, from a solid prone position where Tim had his hardest “front sight focus” of the fight, was when three rapid shots to the head all struck the intended target, the last one “shutting off the computer” and bringing the death battle to a decisive close on the side of The Good Guy. The author wishes to thank Sergeant Tim Gramins and the trainers of the Skokie Police Department for the outcome of this shooting, and fellow police writers Chuck Remsberg and Dave Scoville for first spreading the valuable lessons of this life-or-death battle to the law enforcement community.

Count Dankula mad lads

I have enabled a new feature in our software that essentially grants everyone limited moderator powers when it comes to reporting content that goes against our community guidelines. This new feature is "Auto Moderation" and is currently set so that if TWO OR MORE PEOPLE report content that falls into one of the following categories... Spam Abusive Content Non-Benefactor Advertising Benefactor Posting in the Wrong Area The content will be automatically hidden until a moderator has a chance to address it. This allows us to keep TGO clean and acknowledges the facts that our best defense has long been our members and that our tireless, hard-working, and insanely dedicated team of volunteer moderators can't be everywhere at once and definitely can't be online 24/7. I will tweak the automation that makes this work behind the scenes to ensure that it isn't used unfairly.

And of course he’s sniffing the Seattle area.

Found him

So which one of you guys started up a game of Jumanji?

That's what happens when people are locked in their homes, they need bigger spaces and the women find projects for their husbands to get them out of their hair!!

I saw reman 9mm on GB bid was up to $655 plus shipping on 1K rounds

Breaking News !!!!!!!! (As of yesterday) Nationwide Ammo Shortage as Americans Stock up amid Civil Unrest https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/09/09/nationwide-ammo-shortage-as-americans-stock-up-amid-civil-unrest/

Just when you begin to think Bubba has reached his limits https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/472407264700006420/752092951068278794/video0_-_2020-09-05T214339.268.mp4

New From Apple. http://jebs-stuff.com/TGOHumor/New From Apple.mp4

LOL! Welcome to TGO! I see you are already familiar with the 'liberal' embargo enforced by strip search at the border. You'll get along just fine, here!