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It's obsolete technology. Literally no one uses rotary telephones anymore. I doubt very few 17 year olds have ever used a rotary phone, and I doubt that very few 40 year olds on this forum have started a fire using flint and steel, or friction methods. I still have a rotary phone on the wall in my garage as a conversation piece. Young kids get a bad rap, how many of you that fuss about kids being useless and ignorant have spent time teaching kids, especially kids that aren't yours, how to do things? I know people of all ages who are useless.

I'm not sure why this should be a sign of the imminent demise of western civilization. There's absolutely no need for teens or anyone else to know how to use a rotary phone, these were analog devices which are no longer functional, as the phone companies moved to digital transmissions years ago. Rotary phones are a technology that has no discernible use in the modern world, it's akin to expecting somebody to know how to make a mud and wattle hut ...

Most of this thread is an inverse of how kids feel when older people just don't get technology. Honestly, the kids are going to be fine. What's more of a life skill these days, understanding an app's user interface or knowing how to work a rotary telephone?

Ummm...are you sure about that? (TGO is social media.)

Not worried, I've seen an 8yo trying teach their grandparents how to use their computer.

Ya'll do know the difference in a Democrat and a Republican? 0, absolutely nothing. They are politicians, if their lips are moving, really good chance they are lying. The liberal left and the "conservative right" yeah right. The republicans have done absolutely nothing to make good laws. Oh you do know that if they make a law all the criminals will automatically obey them. Just like they are now obeying all the gun laws and such on the books. Even the illegal aliens are obeying the law and are not crossing the border illegally. I was thinking today that Pelosi and Schumer would have been tarred & feathered then hung for treasonist acts against the U.S.A. But that was back when the PEOPLE actually did run the country. Sorry for the long rant guys. Fed up with the whole flippin lot of them. My chickens are more valuable than the politicians, they give me eggs, cluck at me when they see me coming and they give me valuable fertilizer for my garden.

Yeah I miss them too. If the Norks EMPd us back to the 19th century, that would be a terrible thing. If they somehow EMPd us back to 1980, everyone under 35 would probably have lower blood pressure.

I would love to have a rotaty phone. Times were much simpler and less frantic when they were used.

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I have no problem with what you say as long as that is made clear to Officers before they take the job. If they are expected to wait until the gun is pointed at them; tell them that. That is what this case is telling them. (And that is not a requirement) They are having trouble getting good people that want to be cops. Let’s see how that works. As a citizen that respects the Police I see that as a big problem. The people deserve good law enforcement; it needs to protect us not violent offenders. But be aware that if cops are held to that standard; you will be also. Cops are required to move towards the danger; not away. Citizens don’t have that requirement, so we will be headed back towards “Duty to retreat” for citizens; because that’s what you want for cops. Being a cop is a violent business. You go into it knowing you will be hurt; you don’t expect to be killed. I’m furious that that judge used that video to say it wasn’t clear if the criminal pointed his gun at the Officer or not. That BS; it’s not required and if that video isn’t clear; it should be thrown out. If that video didn’t exist; there would be no trial. But apparently with that video officials feel they can sit around and try to decide if that criminal pointed his gun at that Officer. I can’t believe that will ever stand. A Sheriff is facing dismissal, a Deputy was fired and many are calling for criminal prosecution because the Deputy didn’t act fast enough. 14 kids and 3 staff members were killed, 17 others wounded. But hey, the criminal is alive and well. Cops are required to act. If a gunman not following lawful orders to disarm dies; so be it. I have a niece that was sworn in as a Police Officer Wednesday. I hope the officials in her area don’t side with the violent criminals. This case is malicious prosecution. I’m all for discussing the problems with Policing. And I’m all for charging Police Officers when they commit a crime. But when someone has a gun in their hand, and they are being ordered by someone they know to be a Police Officer to drop it, and they refuse; deadly force is justified. I don’t have an “Us vs. them mentality”, I have a right vs. wrong mentality”.

The TBI investigator’s testimony casts doubt on Delke’s story regarding the chain of events. I’m not able to say one way or another as I don’t view a badge as an automatic signifier of trustworthiness. Cop or not, anyone in his position has an overwhelming incentive to frame events in as positive of a light as possible. So, I’m of the opinion that at this point he and The People are entitled to their day in court. Now, here’s something where I know we will never agree on, but I’m going to lay it out there anyway. You say you “don’t see how anyone can expect a cop or a citizen to wait until the gun is pointed at them.” I don’t think a citizen can be expected to be held to that standard. The “reasonable person” standard is just and appropriate for the average citizen. A police officer absolutely should be held to a higher standard. If US soldiers in an active war zone are required by their ROE to take fire before engaging with the enemy, I don’t see why it is so unreasonable to require officers to have conclusive proof of imminent threat before killing someone. I don’t doubt the testimony that Delke acted as he was trained to do. Cops are trained not to hesitate because as you finished the above quoted statement, “you are trained that can get you killed.” That’s the problem. The training elevates officer safety over public safety. (If you’re wondering why respect for law enforcement is declining, I’d start looking right there.) I’ve often heard that the first rule of law enforcement is “to go home at the end of your shift.” Well, to use a turn of phrase from our friends from across the pond, that’s utter bollocks. We arm and empower police to use violence up to and including deadly force on behalf of, and for the ends of ensuring public safety. Public safety, not their own personal safety. If law enforcement is really the noble profession that it is purported to be then that means officers actually accepting the responsibility and inherent dangers of putting the safety and well being of all others over their own. That means not opening fire at the first sight of a 12 yo kid with a toy gun, or a lawfully armed citizen following instructions to produce his license, or a man in a Walmart holding a BB gun, or a multitude of other examples of officers freaking out like a scared cat and innocent folks ending up dead. Some of y’all like to complain about folks like me having an opinion on how cops do their jobs while not choosing to wear the badge. Well, as a member of the general public who has to live (or possibly die) with the consequences from their actions, good or bad, from training or mistakes, I (we) damn well do get to have an opinion on the matter. Don’t like it? I don’t care. Know what I don’t like? I don’t like that some guy who’s been trained to be afraid of his own shadow can kill me because my eyes twitched the wrong way and he gets to go home at the end of his shift with no lasting consequences. If the police actually work on behalf of the public, then the public gets a say on how that work is done, even on Monday morning. Now, my words may be a bit harsh on this matter, but don’t mistake me. I don’t have an issue with cops as individuals, but I do have a problem with the job they are expected to do and the way they are trained to do it. I believe that policing in America is fundamentally broken in many ways. If there is to be any hope of fixing it, then all the stakeholders have to be at the table and open to frank and honest discussion.

That is kinda what I was thinking. It is obsolete tech. Like a party line, or calling an operator to connect you. How many of you here know how to set points or adjust your timing? Do you know how to operate the pedals on a Model T? Most likely not. It is obsolete tech. Do you know how to chop down a tree cut it to lumber and build your own home? Of course not, time has moved on from that point and life has become much easier. It is not the foretelling of doom that many of you think it is.

I have handled both at Bud's, the PTR seems better made. I think I saw a video showing a head to head, PTR was more robust. Saw a stack of PTRs at Bud's in Sevierville before Christmas for $579

Oops ! Picked the wrong one. https://www.theblaze.com/news/good-guy-gun-wins

Man, that is a really old cow.

The flip side of this is that there is also the biggest potential for "us" from this newer generation to teach ourselves skills and do things ourselves. Is everyone/all of us like this? No. Are some of us extremely resourceful and capable of doing a lot of stuff ourselves? I think so. Utilized in a positive manner, with Google, YouTube, and all of the other DIY sites, there are few things that you cannot teach yourself to do if you set your mind to it.

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Coral Springs, the PD of which the newly appointed Sheriff is retired from, is in Broward County.

I recently ran across a deal(at least I think so) on a Colt Gold Cup National Match 70 series on another forum that I belong to. I've always wanted one in 70 series and passed on a few due to the price($1200- $2000 plus) this one I got for $850. I checked the serial# on Colts web-site and it showed it was made in 1981. The slide to frame fit is tight with no movement or rattle, has the original box(has seen better days but it is original to the gun) has a collet bushing and it fits tight to the Bbl. front strap has the vertical serrations, original grips. I haven't had time to put some rounds down it yet, but hopefully soon. Here are a few pics.

The point is, any of us could be handed an item that was obsolete twenty five years before we were born and be completely confused by what it was. The fact that it was an essential daily item means nothing when it was replaced by a far superior item that evolved a dozen times.

It's not that a cop's life is valued more than a criminals per se, it is that someone committing a crime has devalued their own life. If we start playing this game, soon you will have to make sure it is a fair fight with a home intruder because his life equals yours. Mistakes get made, sure enough, but to blatantly disregard the fact that criminals have no problem killing LEOs or citizens that get in the way of their crimes is ridiculous. We have laws, we "hire" people to study, make and teach the best business practices they can to keep the general public safe. If you don't like the way they do business, it is ok to voice your opinion, and to lobby for changes to be made, but don't be upset when the majority of the public supports the way it is handled and say so as well. I personally think the TN (mostly Davidson County) justice system is not harsh enough; they allow perps to disagree to get arrested, call their parents (over 18) and 911 because a police officer is asking them to step out of their vehicles, and the judges keep letting dangerous criminals off with light to no sentences, WTF.

Every notice that so called progun politicians always say we can't try and pass progun legislation because we don't have the votes, but every session anti-gun legislation is presented if it has votes or not? How can they claim to be pro-gun if they aren't doing something about it?

I hate to hear that, though I wish I could say I was surprised. The best performing Taurus designs I've heard are the PT92 and the PT111 G2. As to the shipping cost, about 10-15 years ago the carriers implemented a policy that handguns must go next day air, thus the premium cost. FFLs can still use USPS to ship handguns more reasonably, but A) it's only for FFL-to-FFL and B ) It's USPS

I have a '56 Chevy Stepside truck that was my Papaw's. It is origional. I asked my kids how to start it.....no one knew that weird thing in the floorboard is the starter. No young punk could start it, let alone drive the 3 on the tree. Now if I could just get it up and running. Time and cash.. always my enemy. I am in IT, the real issue is that people DON'T want to know how to do things. They want it done for them. Does not matter if it is changing a car's oil, running a table saw, or correcting an issue in Excel.

What's wrong with it? Parts for stuff like that are usually available, and sometime they can be inexpensive to fix.

Nice piece! Watch the roll pin that holds the rear Ellison sight on. They aren't hardened very much and have been know to fail causing the rear sight to pop out and get lost. When I shot mine a lot I replaced it with a solid pin.

Sure makes me feel old. Oh the rotary dial phone, and the party line. Hey Murgatroy I still have the flexible allen tool to set the points on a GM vehicle with window in distributor cap. This reminds me of the story of the gentleman that left his keys in his 1956 Chevy at the parts store and some Hispanic guys stole it, drove across town and paid $10 for gas but could not figure out where the gas filler door was. They left walking and the owner got his car back. Just like a 3 on the tree standard shift, most people under 40 would scratch their heads and go, Huh.

Thanks to a childhood of being around these type things I can say neither are particular hurdles. No more than driving damn near anything that will move IF the situation calls for it. Thats the difference I see going forward. So many out there aren't being taught essential things modern tech won't do for you. While the rotary phone was obviously a poor choice in an attempt to prove a point I understand what they were trying to convey. I believe the rotary phone was chosen because a "phone" is the single most important thing in life to so many. It's how they start and end their day and countless decisions emotions and reactions all start with it. An example : I encounter this far too often. I use cash as payment ( the horror I know ) and the cashier has to think about the change to give me back. We aren't talking rocket science, we are LITERALLY talking simple math and yet without their register in front of them they are lost. I've had several tell me "wait, let me just grab my phone and pull up my calculator" all the while me telling them what change I should be given because I done the math in my head as they were attempting to understand the situation. And for the record the register was out of paper, offline, some other BS which is why I paid in cash to start with. My point is while "outdated tech" is not necessarily the goto thing there are plenty out there that are letting society, media, and the newest tech tool teach their kids and letting the basic fundamentals fall to the wayside. Much like OS commented somewhere else on here that I was reading last night its attrition pure and simple. Yes we are stronger as a society that has the latest and greatest and latest at our fingertips but take that away and a great deal of our population would be F**KED !

The Blaze isn't exactly a fake news site, in that they don't totally manufacture all their stories, but they selectively report and omit facts that skew their stories. Media Bias Fact Check (medibiasfactcheck.com) is a great source for checking the reliability of various information sources. They call it pretty much as they see it, right or left, and they explain their reasons so you can decide if you agree they are valid. They rate the Blaze as "extreme right" with a "mixed" record on factual reporting.

Depends on who is on the jury, all it takes is one.

I feel that it is rare for any level of government to "get it," do good or do the right thing. This is one of those very rare occasions. https://www.upworthy.com/the-health-department-was-called-on-a-teen-s-hot-dog-stand-its-response-was-wonderful?c=ufb2&fbclid=IwAR1CJkipdzhrkspmiWqwtVAM1ziVpDNaKuT0xvao9jml0jbMiA4IqCynTrQ

TGO (let me sound old) is a message board. I consider that different. If I don't come to the site for weeks, I never even have to think about it. I don't have to open any subjects that I don't want to, unlike a feed of whatever crap my "friends" reposted or "liked". My wife logged into Facebook on my previous phone once and logged out. I still have contacts of hers that auto imported to my list, even with pics. I still get the occasional notification that I need to log in too. Even though this is a different device. That is the social media I want to avoid. I give up the possibility of seeing deals on stuff there sometimes, but I am sure my wallet needs no additional reasons to be empty. Lol

All of my lowers say TN on them except my one Ruger lower. I buy from TN manufacturers just so they say TN.

The average government bureaucrat has no idea what this concept means...

You know the real answer is just buy a 1911 in .45 and be done with it.

Sure. Just not in time for you or me. Frankly, I'm about ready to quit paying attention to any of it. If the newer crop wants to fit into the world of toxic masculinity, it's up to them. Worse things than dying, I reckon.

Attrition, mi amigo, attrition -- major legal changes take effect as much over time as immediately. Few of our progeny will remain criminals by stashing banned firearms they can't even shoot without risk of the hoosegow, - OS

My point was merely for historical perspective to those who likely don't know this. And yes, of course, it's always a concern. Especially in the next Congress, where there seems a decent likelihood of a Dem sweep of all three branches. Importantly, ever since 2004, there have always been enough purple state Dems in DC to join the Republicans in staving off another AWB. But it's clear that the constituencies have changed for both many Dems AND some Republicans in various states, to the point that a "common sense gun safety" stance isn't necessarily the ballot killer it has been in the past. - OS

Testing on a variety of Ammo is important. I played around with about 20 different kinds, and found my rifle seems to like the Wolf Steel-cased stuff in .223. 6" groups at 200 yds on a bench and bags w/ 12x scope. - K

I like that "Last year we saw tens of thousands of students nationwide take to the streets to demand action...." Tens of thousands out of the population of 325 million. So lets say 65000...or .02% of the population. Just as a comparison, there are estimated to be 251,000 Amish in the US. So should we all turn off our electricity? Stupid people pushing personal agendas and firing up those too lazy to think for themselves.

There will be more. Romney is already Flakin'

I love it when the government actually helps the community instead of hurting it, well done.

"It's hard to remember that your main objective was to drain the swamp when you're up to your ass in alligators".

I had both. Unfortunately I sold the my PTR and kept the cetmet. I miss my PTR every day. But not as much as my FAL. But yeah, PTR hands down.

Chuck, one night myself and another Officer was dispatched to a business on a burglar alarm. It was a business where the alarm went off a lot and was always false. As I approached the building I could see from the street people in the building. The other Officer was right behind me. I blacked out and rolled into the lot. They had seen me and took off running for the door. The first suspect went out the door and I gave chase on foot. The other Officer put his squad on the door and blocked the 2nd suspect inside. 2 white males that appeared to be adults. We ran across the street (about 100 yards) and into a wide open field. A short distance into the field the suspect stopped and turned and faced me. He was pulling something out of his waistband that I thought was a gun; but I was not absolutely sure. My choice was to do something or wait to see what he was doing. I fired a warning shot into the ground feet in front of him. It went through my mind that we had a department policy against firing warning shots, but my only other option was to kill him. When I did that he turned around and continued to run. At that time we could shoot fleeing forcible felons; burglary was a forcible felony. As we crossed the field he was approaching a building. My thought was that if he made it to that corner; he had cover to shoot me. I fired at him. The bullet hit the corner of the building as he went around the corner. Other Officers had arrived and were coming around the other end of the building. As I rounded the corner those Officers had him at gunpoint and he had his hands in the air. He had no gun. When I asked him what he was pulling out of the front of his pants he said he didn’t have anything. Turns out he was a 16 year old juvenile, home on leave from reform school. He was taken to HQ by other Officers and turned over to Juvenile Officers. Command Officers came to the scene to see what happened with the shooting. When I told them what happened one of them said “We have a department policy against warning shots.” I replied with “Screw that, department policy won’t save me if I’m on trial. I have to be able to use anything I have to keep from killing someone; that is what I did.” As we were getting ready to leave, the Juvenile Officer radioed us and told us to stay there, he was sending the Fire Department out; they would explain. When they arrived they said “your suspect threw a gun on the roof.” They pulled a loaded 6” Model 66 off the roof. The 16 year old told the Detectives when he turned on me; he was going to shoot me. He didn’t expect me to fire so he ran for cover. He saw the other Officers approaching from the other way and knew he was caught. Otherwise he would have shot me once he got to cover. As he rounded the corner they weren’t there yet and he threw the gun on the roof. They never saw the gun. I am alive today because I violated department policy and fired my weapon. So is he, because if I hadn’t been in a wide open field, if there had been people around; I would have shot him. Even though he never got a chance to point his gun at me; one of us would have probably been dead when I rounded that corner. After that incident our department policy was changed. I didn’t make him burglarize that building; I didn’t make him run, I didn’t make him have a gun, and I didn’t make him try to kill me. He did all that because he was a dirt bag criminal with no regard for life. The protection of violent criminals has gone too far. Law abiding citizens and cops that have to use deadly force to protect themselves from dirt bag criminals should have that protection; not them. So having been in the same situation this is very personal for me. By the time you see the weapon pointed at you; it’s too late. I feel terrible that the officials have turned their back on this Police Officer, and all other Police Officers, and sided with a thug carrying a gun. It’s reasonable to believe he would have shot the Officer. Yes, he will probably he acquitted. But he or no other Officer or citizen should have to go through what is being done to him.

Between the two you mention, I would definitely go with the PTR.

If you buy the PTR you can guarantee you wont get burned....or as cheap as they have gotten just assemble a 308 AR and have a better gun lol.

Like my M1 carbine project, this one got way out of hand. Once I was pot committed, I had to see it to the river. The total investment includes repurposed items not specifically bought for this carbine and amortized over 8 years. $175: original purchase, used new in box with PotA stock, 4 mags, and compensator. $70: ATI storm-clone stock. IF YOU OWN ONE OF THESE, THROW IT AWAY, THEY ARE FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY. This stock is the reason I had to make a warranty claim AND HiPoint covered it. This stock is poorly designed for the recoil and will damage the firing pin channel. I had fired less than 200 rounds will using this stock and the damage is easily identifiable by HiPoint. I disclosed to HP my use, they fixed and advised continued use voids the warranty. $50: Deerfield 3-9 x 40 scope, this was a freebie, part of a trade deal. $20: Scope rings $40: Budget bipod, swivel mount Got scared enough by posts on the HP Forum to ditch the ATI and upgrade to the TS stock. Noticed no damage when I swapped out the receiver, but the damage was already done. $40: Tactical stock $45: Mag holder +2 mags $50: Budget bipod, rail mount $40: BSA red dot Ran this version through a carbine class with no malfunctions and determined with 10 round mags, I could keep it running. Then I saw the High Tower Armory bullpup and I had to have it. They have addressed the recoil with a more fully supported barrel and piston to buffer the bolt. $250: HTA stock with one charging handle $15: ambi charging handle $200: Burris FF3, repurposed from my M1 Carbine. $70: 2 M-Lok QD sling mounts and swivels $40 Magpul AFG2 $30: Caldwell sling Swapping from the TS To the HTA revealed the unique cracking of the firing pin channel from the ATI stock. I probably shot 1000 rounds in the TS with zero malfunctions, so unknown how much longer I could have shot it before a failure. $18: Shipped back to HiPoint, USPS Became a customer for life when I got it back, the only re-used part was the frame. New breech bolt, internals, receiver cover, stock with tool-less receiver pins, 6 new mags to replace the 6 old ones, one new mag, and the sling and swivel kit. The finish if the new bolt and receiver cover is much improved since 2008. Per checklist, 110 rounds of 115gr blazer, rem, and win to function test with all mags. $65: 2 Redball 20 round mags and 2 HP speed loaders. You should not pursue a similar project, too many purpose built, higher quality 9mm carbines in the market. If you're thinking about getting a PCC, start with a TS and be happy It works. 110 rounds of Win 124gr NATO 7 new 10 round mags; HP is improving their branding - HP logo and mfg date stamped into mag body. 2 - 20 round Redball mags. Zero malfunctions. I have to slightly rotate the mag in a counter clockwise direction to get it to fall free, occurred with all the mags. I'll call HTA next week and report back. Since I was moving the Fast Fire from one gun to another, I did my best creating a rest with my two sandbags, but couldn't quite get a comfortable set up. Center, 3 mags, 10 yards, tweaked windage only LL, 1 mag, 15 yards LR, 1 mag, 20 yards UR and UP, 1 mag ea, 25 yards Not pictured, 15 yards at 9 - 2" circles, 20 yards, 6 - 3" circles, and standing, 15 yards, 8" circle, 15 of 20 on target.

I'll come at this from a slightly different angle... As Prag mentioned he does not drink or "fiddle with his damn gun either". THAT is most likely the real reason-sober or not- that the gun went off. Modern pistols with drop safeties only go off ONE way and that is for the trigger to be pressed. I would be interested to see exactly WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED to cause this. Needless (and careless) handling of the gun caused by poor carry methods tend to lead tho this sort of thing more times than not. The odds are OVERWHELMING that he did not pull the gun out and intentionally discharge it, It was most likely an accident caused by unsafe carry methods. My guess (and I could be wrong) is that he probably was either carrying without a holster (anyone remember Plaxico Burress shooting himself when his pistol fell down the inside of his pants leg after being "Mexican carried" in his waistband?) or was carrying with a crappy holster and the gun came dislodged somehow. He probably was trying to readjust it and got trigger either wrapped up with finger or clothing and gun then predictably fires. THAT is how they are designed to work. Pull the trigger..... get loud noise. Now before anyone says "yeah but.... he shouldn't have been drinking" that does NOT change the veracity of my point in the least. If he were .10 BAC but not TOUCHING THE GUN it would not go off. Guns do not go off on their own in the presence of alcohol....someone has to be handling the gun and there is no reason to do that in a restaurant ...unless it is no longer secure.... Right now as I sit here sober as a teetotaler typing this the ONLY way my gun in its holster can possibly go off is for me to pull it out of the holster far enough to manipulate the trigger. Alcohol is largely irrelevant if the gun is not handled.....the CARELESS HANDLING caused the discharge...not the presence of alcohol. It may have contributed to the careless handling but alcohol was not the CAUSE of the discharge. So what do we learn from this? Carry it in a REAL professionally designed big boy holster not some cheap garbage that does not prevent the trigger from being manipulated or just stuffed in a pocket or a waistband. Stone cold sober or not there is no reason to carelessly handle the gun in a restaurant . If you are having to handle it because you refuse to buy a real holster and it has come loose from where you are carrying it then stuff like this happens.

If you are testing for accuracy, you have to remove the variables. Last one I did, I used a 24X scope and hand loads with 77 grain Matchkings. Also used a decent rest and rear bag. If you are testing a sub moa gun, you need to be able to see sub moa on the target, and the bullets have to fly straight. In my case, I built a PSA freedom midlength kits for my brother. He decided to upgrade it right away, so I stuck a BCM KMR handguard on it, lapped the upper receiver, and bedded the barrel extension. That gun shoots sub MOA.