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I’m going to hit the pause button on this thread for a little while. Speculation isn’t helpful. Conjecture does nothing for the reputation of this community at large. We talk about how the media constantly gets things wrong but then go off the rails ourselves. I recognize this is a place for discussion, but we need to elevate the dialog a bit. I know this solution is not perfect, but that’s why I’m pausing this a bit Today we mourn the dead and wounded. We pray for the victims and their families. I’ll open it back up at some point as more reliable information becomes available.

Well lets see. One next door neighbor is black. The other is Egyptian. And, the only ones threatening violence is a group of white liberals (Antifa). I think the air may be getting a little thin up on that high horse.

LINKS2K is very right, maybe more so that he knows. I was born in ‘90, so my firsthand knowledge only goes so far back. Guess what? The government was supposed to declare martial law under G.W., Obama, and also already under Trump. Depends on who you listen to under which term. I remember the left claiming it about Bush. I remember the right doing so under Obama. If Obama won that was supposed to start a race war. If he lost, it was also supposed to start one. I won’t deny that things are tense in certain aspects. Many people I work with suggest the country has never been more divided. I always like to respond by asking them if we were more or less divided during the Civil War. The point is, and my only point of this post, is that fear does sell. Whether it is Jones selling his flavor of Koolaid, Fox News or CNN theirs, its all still Koolaid and really bad for you when drunken too richly. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What I can't get over is just how atypical of any of the other mass shooters I've ever read about, just how "ordinary" this guy was. 64 years old well retired Anglo accountant, upper middle class at the lowest, so far no history of any kind of political/religious extremism or even activism at all, no documented mental probs, violence, no military/militia stuff, etc. Bought guns over lots of years, like many of us. Plans out the attack well in advance in a quite logical way. Not isolated from remaining family, brother seems genuinely astounded by it. The only remotely odd thing in his life seems to be fact that his father was a bank robber, but he apparently had no contact with him at all after he was 5 years old or so. Just eerie. - OS

I cannot express the sorrow and sadness that overwhelms me. So many lives ended and affected for what seems like no other reason than Paddock wanted to go out in flames and fame. This is a very interesting case indeed, mostly because of the details. Shooter's age 64 I believe, quite outside the mean for these types of things. Tactical planning There was no way any of the victims could immediately oppose the threat. I will be interested to learn whether he was taken down with a long gun from outside or an entry team from within. Hardware Used Seemingly full-auto, I have no experience with a "bump-stock" so unsure whether that is a possibility but it definitely sounded like the real deal. Of course this raises the questions as to where he got it, legally or otherwise, and what his background was. Unless I am mistaken, I believe this would be the first use of an actual automatic weapon in a U.S. mass shooting since the North Hollywood shootout. Trump I guess now we get to see exactly how Pro 2nd he actually is, and whether or not he believes "Pro Gun" means running onto your back porch with your double barrel and shooting off those two warning shots. What always worries me about these types of incidents are the possibility that there is another random nut job out there that is 99.9% of the way there and then an event like this gives him the remaining .1% of courage/inspiration to carry out their brutality.

CNN has video of the aftermath where it shows everyone pitching in to carry out the wounded. They improvised and used metal fencing for stretchers and what appeared to be a wheelbarrow. They then had civilian vehicles take people to the hospital. Despite the evil that caused this I couldn't help but be proud of the spontaneous heros that emerged from the crowd. As Mr Rogers said, when tragedy strikes, "Look for the helpers". Even during our lowest moments, I have faith in good people stepping up and helping their fellow man.

Heat? Different loads (different grain bullet, powder charges) of ammo? Or possibly indicative of a bump fire stock?

A lot of people blame protest movements for their lack of "cause" or unified voice. It's nothing new - reread King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail and you'll find ministers black and white at the time accusing him of the same. With that in mind, it's worth reading the Philadelphia Eagles' Malcom Jenkins in the Washington Post yesterday: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-protesting-nfl-players-like-me-want-to-do-next/2017/09/30/507fc4b0-a513-11e7-b14f-f41773cd5a14_story.html?utm_term=.5a9301eab813

I am about sick and tired of quotes from "officials who cannot comment publicly".

I sincerely hope your ARE the only who thinks that...

Prayers for our country.

A kill shot with a 5.56 AR is doable, been doable for a long time. Hell, even a 22LR has a range beyond a mile.

Well, considering that there is seemingly roughly a 10% kill rate of the total number of casualties (based off reported numbers hospitalized), I'd saw it sounds about right and nothing unbelievable or off about it.

I'm glad the old feller is on a book tour, and not making our Hillary supporters happy in the White House.

This is a horrible situation for these people to be in. No amount of ducking would help. I appreciate that people videoed to help out the police, but my first thought would not be to start a Facebook Live stream..... Nothing I say is going to help the family and friends of those killed, so I am not going to try. I actually am surprised that the police were even able to isolate him as quick as they did. Maybe someone in the hotel reported the room to them. From outside it would be hard to locate.

Very sad, indeed... We are living in very troubled times... Our prayers are with those effected... The howl from this one will be long and loud... There are some pretty strange things and thoughts out there in southern Nevada... leroy...

CK got this whole movement started, and I feel like he went about it all wrong. He poofed up his hair and started wearing Che shirts and "Pig" socks, and came off looking like a wild-eyed, raving lunatic. His subsequent, nearly incoherent, interviews made him look like he was championing a cause he was clueless about. That set the stage for me, and every single one of these current protests just screams "I'm with Colin". Besides, if I go to a game, I'm paying to get the whole "Ballgame Experience". That means, I'm want to have a couple expensive beers, maybe a hot-dog or peanuts, I want to root for my team and have a sense of pride for them. It also means I want to stand for and sing the Anthem, and get a lump in my throat. I don't want to see some jerkwad disrespecting the flag, especially one that I just helped pay his salary. It makes that lump turn to steam around my collar. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, making the beer and dog taste bad, and I lose my pride in the team. It ruins the whole "experience" for me. Once you have done that to me, I don't care what your issue is. You have lost every bit of sympathy you may have ever gotten. Case in point: I love the Titans, and I enjoy watching them. Delanie Walker had to mouth off last week (quote: "And the fans that don't want to come to the game? I mean. OK. Bye, If you feel that's something - we're disrespecting you, don't come to the game."), so what did I do? I did not watch the game. He soured me on the Titans. He disrespects my flag, and then disrespects me because I don't 100% accept his beliefs... I want nothing to do with him or his team. So, yeah, "OK, bye". And as much as a 14 to 57 smackdown loss would have made me sad a week or two ago, this week my feeling is "serves you right".

You know, I'm going to close this thread. I often say we can talk about big issues - but I'm not sure that's true. At least on some issues. There are a lot of voices in this thread that while I disagree with them on this particular issue, I also really respect them. We've shared meals together. We've helped people in this community together. Or maybe we've simply shot together or conversed about a range of topics over the years. We might see this issue or any of a variety of issues differently, but we can still share a meal together and respect one another. But, we've had an influx of voices of late that don't bring anything of value to this community. It's a minority, but they're drowning out a lot of other voices by shouting down people with differing opinions. Maybe it's the constant berating that guests seem to get on "news" shows these days. Maybe it's the anonymity of social media. Maybe it's none of the above causing this. But it's detrimental to this community. I've sat on my hands for the last several months tolerating a few voices - not wanting to make it look like I was overstepping my authority by booting someone with whom I disagreed on a topic - political or otherwise. That was a mistake. Maybe we'll open this back up at some point. I doubt the issue is going to go away anytime soon. Regardless, I'm not sure it's worth it to discuss it here.

Black males are also only 6% if the population, but committ ~50% of all murders. Maybe there is good reason they are 2.5 times more likely per capita to be shot.

I've read with interest and not a little bit of chortling about the "dialogue" thing RE: "Black Oppression"... I'm sorry, i ain't buyin this one, and here's why: 1. We elected a black president not once, but twice... He proved to be the worst president since Civil War Reconstruction, and presided over one of the most onerous, one sided political establishments in our country's history. There was no "Resistance" or Civil Disobedience or ANTIBARAK insurgency... 2... We had a "Black Separatist Zealot"as Attorney General under his administration... Stridently "anti everybody" but people of color, and crooked... He is still not in jail, nor will anyone touch him... We endured him, and the spineless political class let him run wild... 3... These two Creteons together emboldened the "Poor Put Upon People of Color Class", the "Thug Class", and their handlers... They were busy runnin wild at places like Fegruson... Ya see it everywhere... Welcome to "BLM" and ANTIFADA... 4... This "emboldenment of the thug class has resulted in a bunch of em gettin shot... It's pretty simple, really... Comply with police requests, and ya generally don't get shot... Fight em, ignore em, try to run over em, or try to run away from em... Get shot... Pretty simple, i think... 5... The current atmosphere in this country is as polarized now as ive ever seen it, and im 72 years old... There was nothing close to this during Viet Nam, and it was very hot then... This whole thing is nothin more than another front in the "Resistance to Trump", which is nothin more than code words for "We're not accepting a duly elected official, nor those who voted for him (..or her..)... It's a demand for mob rule, pure and simple... The end of this little soliloquy; ya ain't gonna get much "dialog" in an atmosphere such as the one we are experiencing now... The "Anti" bunch doesn't want a dialogue; and those who see things the other way are gettin tired of being put upon... This this will have to be won one way or the other... If not at the ballot box, and these idiots marginalized politically; it will be done with the cartridge box... Some of em seem to want that pretty badly... watchin leroy...

Ahh, a kneeler...gotcha. Just wanted to ask, blacks make up what percentage of crime stats??

This is not exactly correct. In raw numbers, yes, police do kill more whites than blacks but whites are four times the population of blacks. When you look at the per capita rates, black folks make up 13% of the population and are 26% of the number of folks killed by police. When you compare the percentage of folks killed by police to their percentage of the population, blacks are killed by police at a rate 2.5 times that of white folks. And for the record, nobody is disrespecting the flag or the country, they are just asking the country to stand up for them before they stand up for it. Until then they will kneel and some like me will pray while kneeling that this country begins to actually live up to the ideals it purports to hold dear.

I have been watching Fox News for 10+ years and I don't think the sky is falling at all. I am also not a snowflake created from listening to any of the mainstream medias propaganda either.

Hang around a while. Someone is always predicting a civil or racial war. It just comes with the territory. Not a lot of optimist chiming in. Lack of diversity in your life and huge doses of Fox News will always have you believing the sky is falling.

Tom Petty brought me no small amount of joy at different times in my life. I know I wore out at least two copies of Full Moon Fever in high school. Man, he'll be missed.

The venue choice was no accident or random. It WAS chosen for the particular type of patrons it draws, mainly conservatives. The shooter is a left wing, radicalized liberal who will be lauded as a hero by the left. Like I said earlier, this is the tolerant left for you.

This is just one more reason why I don't go to anything with a crowd of more than what is found in a grocery store or maybe Walmart late at night when crowd is gone...........JMHO.

Will someone please, PLEASE drop that lame azz washed up Tom BrokeJaw off at the nearest mental facility !

Yes it is. By all means start the dialog but be clear it is a dialog and a conversation. We are not going to just sit and listen to rants about racism from either side though as we have seen where that goes. Discuss facts and solutions yes, but not the distraction points that some want to try. It is time for a dialog and that dialog has to be productive. Productive means we have to get level heads to discuss the facts and the best solutions for identified problems.

I think it's been well established that you do have the Right, but there will be consequences.

You may be right in saying we are discussing it, but not in a meaningful way. I find it hard, nay, impossible to support any cause that begins by spitting in my face.

Chicken killed himself. Why do they never start there.

Actually many of us are. We are talking about the protest, the flag, racism, and what we can do to make this county better. I've discussed these things with friends, family, neighbors, strangers, and on various message boards. Many of these folks are fellow vets. We don't all agree, just like here, but we are talking about it. And that is a good thing. Sure, there are plenty of folks who have their undies bunched up about the method of protest, but once you get past that, and discuss the reason for the protests, the dialog begins. John, even you are discussing this right here in this thread.

Since when does anyone do this? Both sides are horrible about speculating.

I'm thinking possible echo from area.

So, what is the acceptable variance of negative experiences? I'd argue we strive for a variance of 0%, knowing as human beings we'll fall short, and taking notice when we have systemic problems...which I think we do. Those protesting feel that the variance is worse in their field of view than it is for you or I, and are raising awareness the only way that can get our attention short of violence it seems. If they don't feel America is treating them equally enough for them to identify with the flag and the anthem as I do, my first instinct is to find out what their grievance is, not attack their protest.

You know, I've spent a lot of time this week thinking about this and praying about it some. I spent some time over in Paris, Tennessee this week talking with some folks who were upset about the protests, but who also had an apt observation that "the stuff players are protesting was outside of their day-to-day experience." They see these issues on the news some - but it's a long way away when you really don't get that far out of Henry county that often. I think something liberals, intellectuals, city folk and even some of the conservative press do poorly is just assume that everyone should "get it" when that's not a given. Life is way different in Nashville than it is just 75 miles away - whether that's Paris, Red Boiling Springs or Pulaski. It's not a fair argument to assume both sides are working from the same vantage point - and both sides will likely end up resenting one another. But, one thing is increasingly clear - and that is tribalism in America is being exploited by the political class as a whole to divide us - not unite us. It's a disturbing trend where the public is being manipulated on so many fronts - and both parties are guilty of this. But, one question that I've really been struggling with this week is, what does it say about our country when some folks try to start a conversation about racism in America today and it gets turned into a debate about love for our country itself?

You are not going to get that information until the locals and Feds complete their investigations, the reports are submitted and made public. And then only if you read the actual reports will you know.

Because they don't want to. They know.

we've got some rough times ahead I'm afraid.

Bingo. Based on the crowd size and rate of fire, the shooter approached this as an area target, not a point target. And with a crowd size like that, it was a massive area target indeed. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk. OhShoot very much likes to know when we're using Tapatalk.

Oops. She is a nice lady that cares about all of us.

Interesting. First thing I said this morning when my wife was playing the audio was that I thought it sounded like a crank. Like the videos of the twin 10/22's with cranks. It had that cadence to me.

Maybe even a disgruntled Raiders fan?? You can make this fit practically any narrative nowadays.

If it was a false flag, I'm putting my money on the NFL being behind it. We haven't argued about protests all morning. I mean, that's no more ridiculous of an idea than any other false flag theory, right?

As always info is questionable for a while, but someone just popped on the news and said he had trigger cranks on Ar15's

This just sucks. T-minus until the political-elite use this as another event to push anti-2A laws. I feel bump-fire, full auto, and binary triggers will be targeted first along with high capacity mags and bulk ammo.

It is my understanding that the wife, who was the person of interest, is out of the country. As I posited earlier, I think her departure precipitated this event. As far as the story about this woman saying crazy ####, I think it is either an unfortunate coincidence of a drunken rant or more likely, after the fact made up bull####.

Anything is when you have tightly packed targets and a metric ####ton of ammunition. I'm going to call this as having no real political or ideological basis. I think it's going to turn out to be a late-middle-aged white dude who went off the deep end after his mail order wife left him.

Unfortunately for us, it seems there are so many different ways to use this as ammo against the 2nd. Legal MG? Proof they should be illegal. Illegal machine gun? Proof "nobody" should be able to buy that much ammo, a small box or two is all you need. Legally obtained w/ background check? Proof buying guns is too easy and should be banned outright. Purchased without background check? Proof we need to mandate background checks!