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I used to try to carve out room for capital punishment in extreme cases where there was no shadow of doubt. But, that "shadow of doubt" is an interesting phrase. It's interesting how many of the exonerations I've read about left none at the time - after all to be convicted of a capital crime, that's the burden - you must convince a jury of 12 peers unanimously that there is no shadow of doubt. But then a witness recants. Or a witness comes forward to having been pressured to tell a particular version of a story in exchange for a deal. Or evidence is withheld. Or forensic or lab results are tainted. Or whatever... The list simply goes on and on. With all of that, I'm with Capbyrd that I simply do not trust my government to only apply the death penalty to perpetrators of heinous crimes. But, I'll also expand on the rest of my thought process a bit - as it's evolved over the years. As a person who believes that none of us are the worst versions of ourselves - that has to expand to believing that no one is only the product of worst thing they've ever done. Sometimes actions have immediate consequences. If you get shot by a homeowner as you threaten their family - well, sometimes big actions have big consequences. But, a redemptive and restorative philosophy of incarceration means that we seek justice - and realize that it may in fact take a long time. There are some people that should probably never be let out of jail. I'm sure there are some that would choose to be put to death as opposed to spending the rest of their natural life in prison. There are no easy answers. But, I'm convinced as a civil society that capital punishment shouldn't be a part of it.

This is utterly disheartening and simultaneously rage inducing.

Just a reminder to do like your mama taught you - and play nice. We can certainly disagree with one another - but doing so should follow the same rules as it would if it were to happen at the dinner table. Be respectful, be prepared to back up your arguments, and avoid personal attacks. Otherwise, don't be surprised when people quit inviting you to dinner...

congrats, if you ever need parenting advice from someone without kids, just shoot me a message!

Giving the state the ability to kill anyone is a mistake.

This thread has caused me to reconsider my support of the death penalty. Some people definitely deserve to die but not at the hands of a system that continues to lock up innocent people. Its not worth the risk.

FIFY!

If anyone else showed up with a gun and demanded you turn over your cash, it would called armed robbery. Without actual criminal charges and a conviction, it should be no different with a badge. If it's drug money, convince a DA to press charges and then prove it in court. I also agree that the seizing agency shouldn't get a dime of it. It creates way too much conflict of interest. I know that would remove a huge tool in the DEA's arsenal for going after drug runners, but the cost to our civil liberty is just too great, IMO.

Maybe we could carpool over there and at least get some Central Barbecue with Chucktshoes after it's done.

Believe me Mac I can understand completely your stance on this and I also have given it a ton of thought and it is hard for me to see trusting any Judge, jury or Prosecutor to produce all of their evidence to the Defense so a fair trial can be held. Now I will let my problem known what scares the hell out of me about life in prison without the possibility of parole. Back for those of you folks that remember a Governor named Ray Blanton. I don't know how many people knew his plans for the night before he left office but he planned on signing pardons and paroles for people in prison. On the list was about 12 or more murders and two in particular where professional hit men partners that killed a doctors wife for him while he was out of country and when he learned it was done the doctor got scare and feared them that he hired so he ratted them out if he could avoid prosecution. He set them up to be caught. Because the authorities wanted these 2 killers off the streets they made the deal. Blanton was going to Pardon these 2 guys along with several other really bad guys that had bought their way out! I learned about this years later while talking with a retired investigator that was one of the ones that took Blanton down. It is things like this that make me not trust putting men like this in prison for life instead of putting them on death row. President Obama pardoned a bunch of people just before he left office. I don't know what crimes they had committed but the fact is it was done. For those of you that don't know who Ray blanton was you can read about him in the link below.That is what scares the hell out of me is some crazy politician turning a bunch of these crazy people back out of prison. They cannot pardon anyone on death row!!! http://themoderatevoice.com/tennessee-governor-blanton-the-most-mischievous-of-mischief-makers/

Man, just slap a sign on the house, put out a donation box and go ahead and make it a museum. I'd pay $10 to go see all that...

Worth considering in this argument - though it could be a thread in it's own right. This article in the Times this morning mentions that of the 166 exonerations in 2016, 70 involved government or prosecutorial misconduct. The case cited involves Shelby County District Attorney Amy Weirich - regarding a case that set her on her upward trajectory politically... https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/magazine/she-was-convicted-of-killing-her-mother-prosecutors-withheld-the-evidence-that-would-have-freed-her.html?referer=https://t.co/mlRL0Wmk5v?amp=1

Let's not forget that were it not for the efforts of WREG, the department/DA would have never admitted to the screwup.

Two months ago we welcomed this young patriot into the world. Last week one of my best friends in the world got back from his first deployment with the absolute elite of the elite SF in the Army. He brought this home for my son, and I won't lie about it...I choked up. This little fella has made me all kinds of soft. This flag represents all that I think is great about our country, and is easily my most prized possession. I hope I raise this young patriot to love this country half as much as the steely eyed freedom fighter that faced our enemies under this flag in Syria. Caption on flag reads: "This flag was flown by the first American forces to enter and assault Raqqa, Syria on 14 June 2017. It was raised to honor and celebrate the birth and lifelong freedom of Wyatt Patrick. OPPRESSORS BEWARE"

You never know, guys. I've been to a couple of auctions in the last couple of years and left with stuff I never dreamed I'd own for a song. One thing is for certain. You won't get a bargain if you don't go.

Congrats. That is great news. Now for some advice you can use. Go take pictures of all your tools, guns, fishing rods and other toys you may own. They will not be yours for long after Feb. LOL

Apparently this was a gentleman of exquisite taste. If anyone does go to the auction you might want to put on your Sunday go-to-meetin' clothes, lol. I bet the trains are cool as the old guns. Just imagine being able to put all your stuff out on display to admire anytime you like.

Personally, I believe that once a citizen provides proof that he or she is legally carrying then, without strong probable cause, at the very least, an officer should have no more right to disarm the citizen than the citizen has to request that the officer leave his or her firearm in the patrol car. As a citizen, I don't know the person who is approaching me and just because he or she is wearing a uniform doesn't mean I won't end up 'accidentally' shot. My life and my right to feel safe and secure in my life is every bit as important as an officer's so as long as I haven't given the officer probable cause to suspect I will do him/her harm then if I have to disarm for our conversation then the officer should have to disarm, as well. Luckily, instead of disarming a legally armed citizen I think/hope most officers would reasonably say, "Well, you leave yours in your holster, I will leave mine in my holster and we won't have a problem."

Dunkirk at the IMAX is on my calendar for tomorrow night.

Seizing money based solely on suspicion is ridiculous.

Now they do it because someone thinks they might be involved in loaf larceny. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-04-18/local/me-24209_1_forfeiture-law

A little harsh with the accusations there aren't we? While mostly unhinged, we do try to express some level of respect for each other on the board. This is one of the few places on the internet that is *nearly* troll-free.

Sometimes folks wish for a sarcasm font to ensure clarity of their statements. Sometimes that would be wholly superfluous. We've been here for about the same amount of time, so I will assume my views on law enforcement tactics and culture are not unknown to you. If you choose to dismiss what I have to say here because of that, so be it. However having been here as long as you have I will also assume that you are aware of how little tolerance TGODavid has for random and needless cop bashing. This is not that, because if it was I would imagine he would have stepped in long before now to handle matters as he, or other members of the moderating team are wont to do when it becomes an issue. I can think of many folks who received suspensions and permanent bans for cop bashing. This incident happened here in our state. The victim and the perpetrators are our neighbors, fellow Tennesseeans. Therefore this is a matter of great interest and concern for all of us. It is an important and relevant matter worthy of discussion. I know you're in LE, though I don't know the agency. I really hope your dismay at this discussion is due to fatigue from having heard so much about it already from your CoC and not at finding valid and justified criticism and anger at folks who abused the authority and trust placed in them. (I also hope that every LE agency in the state is emphasizing that this sort of behavior is wholly unacceptable because the alternative to that is wholly unacceptable.) I know that it's been a rough time for LE lately (and in the last couple of weeks especially) as a lot of negative stories have come to light recently that reflect badly on the profession. While the topic may be unpleasant for you, it is of merit and I think that if you chose to do so, you could add value to the discussion.

I'm not arguing with you, but it seems like that should be a kick in the ass to the public to start getting some better people in uniform.

No one deserves to be treated like that. When you lose sight of a person's humanity, that ought to be a good indication that you need to find another career.

She needs to just go ahead and Sue them for false arrest etc. because their apology does not even the score. She probably wont get anything but she can inconvenience them to the point they did her.

Left Handed Walnut Burl handles...small but cool mosaic pins and a lanyard hole. It has a bit of jimping and is differentially heat treated to obtain the hamon on the blade.

A Blanton scenario could conceivably creep up again, but my conscience can't accept the risk of putting the innocent to death as a partial at best check against future Blanton like behavior. Government executing innocent people (or preparing to execute and thankfully stopped before it happened) is a problem that we have seen in the past, and continues to happen on a steady pace. I'm also not sure that someone on death row can't be pardoned as a rule of thumb...that would vary state by state. All of his pardons and commutations is documented if you care to deep dive them. https://www.justice.gov/pardon/obama-pardons https://www.justice.gov/pardon/obama-commutations

Are there any markings at all on the rail? Can you post a picture of the full rail? It looks familiar but I'd like a full view before I start looking at some of the options.

I'd bet that if we played our cards right we could hit Central, the BBQ shop and Germantown Commissary all in one day. Somebody else is going to have to drive home, though...

Congratulations !! Best thing that even happened to me.

This made me weak in the knees.

Wow is right! Though.... when I see stuff like this I have to wonder what the family's thought process is. That's more than enough stuff to make a fine museum collection that could be enjoyed by many for years to come. But now it'll just get scattered to the wind. It's certainly theirs to do with as they please, but it makes me kinda sad.

I'm not moved to be against it yet, but I've long held that it should only be used for heinous crimes when there's zero doubt of guilt and innocence. Get a conviction beyond reasonable doubt, but only have execution on the table when it's beyond the shadow of a doubt. We wrongly convict too many people to use it in any other way.

"I'm from the government...I'm here to help...." While the overwhelming majority of police officers are conscientious and do a good job for little pay and less appreciation you also see instances where things like this happen. This woman was treated like a criminal , her liberty taken away and booked into jail because of a mistake. It is not like a normal business where a mistake would be she asked for coke and got diet coke instead. She was booked into jail. She should at the very minimum get any attorneys fees, lost wages and some sort of reasonable settlement for emotional damages. On the other hand....if the gun had been concealed none of this would have likely happened because they would not have seen the gun in the first place. Some of you don't like hearing that, but truth is truth. It may be your right to open carry but it also creates situations that would not be created if a gun were not visible.

My "pistol".

Awesome thanks a lot for all of the helpful information. I have a Zev Dragonly Slide that shows a good amount of the barrel is the reason I was wanting to get a Stainless one but if I do I'll probably just keep the OEM one for the future anyways. Thanks again

That is SEXY!

I was able to zero the .308 so I'll be flying the Heavy Metal flag this month.

As Dolomite previously pointed out, the city or county or whoever will have insurance to cover any settlement that is reached. They weren't 60 miles outside of their jurisdiction. At least that's my understanding. A TN POST certified officer can operate anywhere within the state boundaries. I could be wrong about that but I've been told that by several officers. None of what you said makes a bit of difference. No amount of backstory or anything else changes the fact that they are torturing a man who is restrained.

I always think along the same lines whenever someone points out that the majority of cops aren't like this. Sure, maybe only 10% are corrupt or just outright bad cops (although I think the number is probably a little higher) but what percentage of the ostensibly 'good' cops look the other way when crap like this happens? What percentage of the 'good' cops - as you say - circle the wagons and try to defend their behavior just because they are 'a brother in blue'? As Chucktshoes alluded earlier, what percentage is more interested in loyalty to their profession than in actually upholding the law even if it means 'ratting out' and condemning the behavior of other officers? And if the 'good cops' know that these 'bad cops' are engaging in such abuses of power and they don't say anything then are they truly 'good cops'? Honestly, I would say, "No, they aren't." Now, do I believe that all cops know beyond a shadow of a doubt that other cops are abusing power, etc. and yet say nothing? No. Do I believe that there truly are 'good cops'? Yes, absolutely. However, I think the kneejerk reaction by other cops and by some members of the public to automatically defend the cops no matter what is a dangerous trend that is not good for our society or, honestly, for those truly good cops that do exist. One, major problem is that pointing out these things or any, other failure on the part of law enforcement is often met with claims of 'cop bashing' or complete and utter B.S. such as, "Well, you wouldn't want to do it," rather than being taken as honest criticism of behavior that is not up to the standard to which officers of the law should be held.

Forget the evidence that taking a case all the way from trial to death row to the execution chamber is way more expensive than maintaining a prisoner for life without parole. Forget the moral arguments - for or against the death penalty. With the exonerations we've seen over the last few years regarding new evidence, tainted forensics and dishonest prosecutions, I simply do not trust our government to kill people. Again, there are people who should almost certainly spend the rest of their days where they cannot do harm to the rest of the population. But, even in those cases I'd argue against the death penalty. At some point it's not about them - it's about us as a society.

I hope that in my lifetime we see a more jurisdictions move to a view of restorative justice as opposed to the punitive vision that most use today. If from nothing other than a pragmatic perspective - what we've got now clearly isn't working. From a faith perspective - which informs a lot of my thought on the matter - if we believe people can be redeemed, then our prisons need to model that, too. Yes, there are people who need to be in jail. But, there are a lot of people who should not - and their families and communities are suffering systemically as a result. North Dakota is trying an interesting model right now: http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/07/north-dakota-norway-prisons-experiment/

I gotta admit, that is all kinds of badass.

If you have never been arrested it can be very, very traumatic. Imagine being forced, as an innocent person, to strip down to nothing and open up every nook and cranny in your body for inspection by a complete stranger. And when I say inspection I mean INSPECTION. Those officers will inspect places on her body that her husband has probably never seen. Argue at all, like proclaiming your innocence, and you can be tossed into a restraint chair. Then getting thrown into a cell with God knows who. And for someone who has never been in trouble before this is very traumatic. I don't believe anything should happen to the dispatch officer because people do make mistakes but the department needs to step up and do the right thing and apologize. But we will not see an apology, at least not initially, because an apology is an admission of guilt. It will not be until after any civil case that they will apologize, if they ever do. If I were an administrator I would be all over the media apologizing. I would also contact her and see what she wants then do everything in my power to make it happen. I would try to do everything I could to avoid going to court because juries can really do a number on a department and with sentiment towards LE today you would almost be guaranteed a huge payout if the jury had the right mix. And with all those mug shot newspapers and websites an innocent person will have their name slandered in minutes. Personally those mug shot places should only be allowed to post pictures AFTER a conviction. Just because someone is arrested does not mean they are guilty and it would seem like it is slanderous to post a picture and name of someone who has not been proven guilty in a court of law. I would like to throw this out. What probable cause did the officer have to search the serial number? She had a holster and I can understand disarming her while the officer dealt with the other individual but to run the serial number without probable cause would seem like a violation of the fourth amendment. If any of us were disarmed and our gun's serial number ran we would be really upset, especially if the gun you had is not tied to you. Despite the fact the officer had no PC the women was required to surrender the firearm so he could search. The officer should never have ran the serial number without being able to articulate why he believes he has the PC needed to investigate whether the gun was stolen. A holster does not mean the gun in it may be stolen, matter of fact a stolen gun would probably be a bit more hidden. Hope she gets her day in court and the jury awards her all she wants. In addition to suing for false arrest she should also sue the officer for violating her fourth amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. Also making the assumption that she put the firearm on because police were there is a bit over the top. Lets assume she did put her gun on just as they arrived. I often put my gun on before I get into a car and go anywhere as do a lot of us here. Then he goes and briefs the rest of the officers about how she armed herself when police arrived and how he is now nervous, that is EXACTLY how accidents happen.

It has not been my experience to be treated as such, but yes many do. I don't think one should have to sue to get compensated, it should automatically be done to keep the system in check. If errors start costing the departments some operating funds, less errors are likely to occur, or at least more consequences for those making such errors.

If you carry a gun, you will get treated like a criminal, regardless of whether you are or not. She should be able to sue, and win and be compensated for lost wages, any attorney fees, defamation of character, and whatever else her attorney can think of. This is ridiculous.

I understand the training to interact with armed citizens I don't feel that's the same thing I meant. I was referring to the need to add training on how to interact with legally armed citizens. Reciprocate the training given to legally armed citizens. Give both sides the same training so everyone knows what to do and expect. I'd bet, if you could find it, the odds of being shot drop like a rock as to how many times an LEO is shot by a legally armed citizen. That fact should calm down a nervous cop because he knows now, he's very likely not in danger instead of the other way around. As far as the Castille case. I don't know what happened. I did read it was stated that the LEO asked him for his ID and that was what he was reaching for. I do agree that if Castille was told to at some point to stop and raise his hands, that's what he should have done. Again, I don't know what happened. I still think proper and calm communication on both sides would go a long way.

I don't see the need. I've never had HCP holder even now with vehicle carry be a problem. It is typically the unlawful possession ones imagine that!