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No one deserves to be treated like that. When you lose sight of a person's humanity, that ought to be a good indication that you need to find another career.

This is why people hate cops right here. Yeah I know the 10% of ####birds screw it up for everyone else, but if relations between the public and cops are going to improve, the cop community needs to condemn this. Unlike the usual circle the wagons "didn't do anything wrong" attitude you normally see. There isn't a single justifiable reason for this to have occurred and it's disappointing to see so-called protectors of the community acting like savages.

Sometimes folks wish for a sarcasm font to ensure clarity of their statements. Sometimes that would be wholly superfluous. We've been here for about the same amount of time, so I will assume my views on law enforcement tactics and culture are not unknown to you. If you choose to dismiss what I have to say here because of that, so be it. However having been here as long as you have I will also assume that you are aware of how little tolerance TGODavid has for random and needless cop bashing. This is not that, because if it was I would imagine he would have stepped in long before now to handle matters as he, or other members of the moderating team are wont to do when it becomes an issue. I can think of many folks who received suspensions and permanent bans for cop bashing. This incident happened here in our state. The victim and the perpetrators are our neighbors, fellow Tennesseeans. Therefore this is a matter of great interest and concern for all of us. It is an important and relevant matter worthy of discussion. I know you're in LE, though I don't know the agency. I really hope your dismay at this discussion is due to fatigue from having heard so much about it already from your CoC and not at finding valid and justified criticism and anger at folks who abused the authority and trust placed in them. (I also hope that every LE agency in the state is emphasizing that this sort of behavior is wholly unacceptable because the alternative to that is wholly unacceptable.) I know that it's been a rough time for LE lately (and in the last couple of weeks especially) as a lot of negative stories have come to light recently that reflect badly on the profession. While the topic may be unpleasant for you, it is of merit and I think that if you chose to do so, you could add value to the discussion.

I always think along the same lines whenever someone points out that the majority of cops aren't like this. Sure, maybe only 10% are corrupt or just outright bad cops (although I think the number is probably a little higher) but what percentage of the ostensibly 'good' cops look the other way when crap like this happens? What percentage of the 'good' cops - as you say - circle the wagons and try to defend their behavior just because they are 'a brother in blue'? As Chucktshoes alluded earlier, what percentage is more interested in loyalty to their profession than in actually upholding the law even if it means 'ratting out' and condemning the behavior of other officers? And if the 'good cops' know that these 'bad cops' are engaging in such abuses of power and they don't say anything then are they truly 'good cops'? Honestly, I would say, "No, they aren't." Now, do I believe that all cops know beyond a shadow of a doubt that other cops are abusing power, etc. and yet say nothing? No. Do I believe that there truly are 'good cops'? Yes, absolutely. However, I think the kneejerk reaction by other cops and by some members of the public to automatically defend the cops no matter what is a dangerous trend that is not good for our society or, honestly, for those truly good cops that do exist. One, major problem is that pointing out these things or any, other failure on the part of law enforcement is often met with claims of 'cop bashing' or complete and utter B.S. such as, "Well, you wouldn't want to do it," rather than being taken as honest criticism of behavior that is not up to the standard to which officers of the law should be held.

Forget the evidence that taking a case all the way from trial to death row to the execution chamber is way more expensive than maintaining a prisoner for life without parole. Forget the moral arguments - for or against the death penalty. With the exonerations we've seen over the last few years regarding new evidence, tainted forensics and dishonest prosecutions, I simply do not trust our government to kill people. Again, there are people who should almost certainly spend the rest of their days where they cannot do harm to the rest of the population. But, even in those cases I'd argue against the death penalty. At some point it's not about them - it's about us as a society.

This seems like an opportune time to unpack my earlier statement about there being a difference between supporting the law and order, and supporting law enforcement. When one supports law and order, they hold the law itself in high esteem. They believe that the law exists for the good of the people. This means that while they may have respect for those that enforce the law, the law itself is paramount. Therefore, they seek to hold the enforcers of the law to the highest standards of the law and have little tolerance for those that break not just the letter, but the spirit of the laws they have sworn to uphold. When one supports law enforcement, instead of the law itself being held in the highest esteem, it is those that enforce it who are elevated. This leads to situations where one holds greater tolerance for those that bend the laws, or violate the spirit of the law as long as they don't break the letter of it. It also causes one to seek to explain away or excuse instance where those who uphold the laws break them outright and/or engage in gross mistreatment of the people they are supposed to serve. Some folks may view this as an unfair distinction, but it isn't. Just as one can't serve two masters, one can't hold law enforcement and the law itself in equally high esteem when the actions of one may cause conflict with the other. A choice must always be made.* (*There is a third choice, but that is a rejection of both and is not really applicable to the conversation we are having which is predicated on the position that the law is legitimate in its authority.)

I think that there was on an old episode of The Simpsons where Homer drove past a sign that read "Welcome to Texas. 3,086 executions for 2,267 crimes" or something like that.

I hope that in my lifetime we see a more jurisdictions move to a view of restorative justice as opposed to the punitive vision that most use today. If from nothing other than a pragmatic perspective - what we've got now clearly isn't working. From a faith perspective - which informs a lot of my thought on the matter - if we believe people can be redeemed, then our prisons need to model that, too. Yes, there are people who need to be in jail. But, there are a lot of people who should not - and their families and communities are suffering systemically as a result. North Dakota is trying an interesting model right now: http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2017/07/north-dakota-norway-prisons-experiment/

Interesting read on the subject.. Maybe they'll get things sorted out this fall. NASHVILLE, Feb. 16, 2017– On Thursday, Tennessee State Rep. Andy Holt (R-Dresden) took to Facebook Live where he paid two traffic camera tickets with Monopoly money and a photographed image of a $50 bill. On one of the payments, Holt wrote “In the spirit of justice,” before sending it off to processors. Holt says he did the video in an effort to raise awareness for new legislation, aimed at traffic cameras, he’s introducing along with Senator John Stevens (R-Huntingdon) and Senate Transportation Chairman Senator Paul Bailey (R-Sparta). (Note: The video is HERE.) “Cities across the state, in concert with photo-enforcement companies, continue to skirt the law and take advantage of our taxpayers, and I won’t rest until everyone knows the truth about this,” says Holt. The proposed legislation will require all unmanned traffic cameras be used only from a marked police car with the lights blazing, and will require the suspect to be pulled over by the law enforcement officer operating the manned photo-enforcement device. “Every traffic camera proponent I’ve talked to says it’s all about safety, yet we have unmarked cars with cameras hidden inside of them which do absolutely nothing to slow a driver down,” said Holt. “It’s entrapment, plain and simple. You know what does slow a speeding vehicle down? A marked police car on the side of the road. Therefore, I don’t expect any resistance to this proposed legislation, since it is about safety, after all.” The legislation will also have other elements. One such element is to require all communications to a violator expressly state that non-payment of the citation cannot affect your credit score, driver’s license or car insurance rates. “We already passed this law last year, but cities continue to knowingly ignore state law in order to collect more money from people,” says Holt. “They are also issuing citations that say ‘PAYMENT IS REQUIRED BY LAW’, well, that’s not true and the cities know it’s not. Traffic violations fall under criminal statute within state law, and there is no state law on the books saying you have to pay a traffic camera citation disguised as a civil violation. Also, by saying payment is required, the citation assumes you’re guilty when you haven’t been found guilty of anything. The legislation will outlaw this predatory language.” Holt says the proposed legislation has been met with warm reception by many Tennessee lawmakers. “There’s a lot of support for these proposals. When the Chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee, which will hear the legislation, carries the bill you know there’s broad support,” says Holt. “Tennesseans are tired of being manipulated by their government and legislators are starting to understand that.” Holt says one of his biggest problems with traffic cameras is how they incite disrespect towards law enforcement. “Not only are citizens victims of this practice, but law enforcement agents are as well, and I want people to know that,” says Holt. “Police are employed by city governments. Government officials tell them what to do. It’s unfortunate to see how many people get upset with police officers over these cameras. It’s not their fault. Trust me, I have received hundreds of phone calls from law enforcement officers who say they want these things gone, but cannot speak out in fear of losing their job. People do not need to be upset with police. They need to be upset with politicians who make the laws police are tasked with enforcing.” Holt did a similar video last session which went viral and gained national attention where he burned a traffic camera ticket. http://humphreyonthehill.tnjournal.net/rep-holt-pays-traffic-camera-tickets-with-monopoly-money/

I've been seeing things in a different light lately. On Friday I was driving home from work and 3 cop cars from Crossville came up beside me. These guys were 60 miles outside their jurisdiction yet they were doing 15 over the posted speed limit and tailgating (intimidating) every vehicle until they moved out of their way. Imagine if one of us came up behind a cop and rode their ass just to get them to move over.

Over 40 years ago, the Stanford Prison Experiment showed the power dynamic between guard and prisoner that leads to things like this. I'm not surprised it happened, not surprised it took so long to come to light...and I'm standing by to see these guy get slaps on the wrist. The surprise will be if they're held to full account for what they did.

Two months ago we welcomed this young patriot into the world. Last week one of my best friends in the world got back from his first deployment with the absolute elite of the elite SF in the Army. He brought this home for my son, and I won't lie about it...I choked up. This little fella has made me all kinds of soft. This flag represents all that I think is great about our country, and is easily my most prized possession. I hope I raise this young patriot to love this country half as much as the steely eyed freedom fighter that faced our enemies under this flag in Syria. Caption on flag reads: "This flag was flown by the first American forces to enter and assault Raqqa, Syria on 14 June 2017. It was raised to honor and celebrate the birth and lifelong freedom of Wyatt Patrick. OPPRESSORS BEWARE"

After living in Nashville for the past 28 years, the wife and I relocated to Huntsville this weekend. It's definitely strange to think about living in another state. But a career opportunity I couldn't pass up came along. This has been a strange weekend to say the least. I'm didn't move far; I plan on staying around TGO. There are too many good guys that I've met over the years on here. Too much still for me to learn. I'll just be a lot less active in the firearms classifieds!

That's a weird comparison. It's kind of like saying "No, that woman is too attractive. I'd rather have the frumpy one with a lot of cats."

I'm not arguing with you, but it seems like that should be a kick in the ass to the public to start getting some better people in uniform.

I purchased the can from Silencer Shop the first week of June, they handled the F4 paperwork, it went pending 7/17, and it arrived at my dealer this past week. This was my first transaction with them and they knocked it out the ballpark! Knight's Armament Company (KAC) 762 QDC CQB suppressor on my SR-25 EMC.

Knoxville had a hit piece on the news with this subject saying you had to pay them as well. Rep Holt is spearheading this because out elected officials are all about cashing in on the citizenry. He has a website that covers a lot of issues. http://www.andyholt4tn.com apparently he gave a way an AR as a door prize last year too. http://archive.commercialappeal.com/news/government/state/tennessee-rep-holt-to-give-away-ar-15-at-fundraiser-352f00e2-f4cc-176a-e053-0100007fb102-382739961.html I think I'll get a camera ticket on purpose just to mess with them.

You can thank Ronald Reagan and the GOP for that. His war on drugs and the Comprehensive Crime Control Act that was a part of it brought civil forfeiture back into vogue in the USA. It really incentivized local and state LEOs to take advantage of it. There's nothing quite like guilty until proven innocent, is there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Legal_origins http://www.aclu-tn.org/policing-profit-shocking-cost-civil-asset-forfeiture/ News Channel 5's Phil Wwilliams did a big expose series on this several years ago. Here's one for $22,000 http://www.newschannel5.com/story/18241221/man-loses-22000-in-new-policing-for-profit-case Or how about $160,000: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/tn-hearings-demonstrates-_n_4323673.html

Holy cow, as my ancient computer was sending this message very slowly the notification popped up saying you posted a reply. I promise you I didn't see your reply when I was typing mine, yet we came to the same conclusion. LOL

Congratulations. Speaking with a modicum of experience I can say that everything you know is wrong or soon will be.

Normally I would agree but I can't see how it would make a difference in this case. He was essentially tied to a chair. Why taser him repeatedly?

I agree with everything you said Dave, with the exception of the quoted lines. The current administration and its Justice Department are very pro law enforcement, not pro law and order. They are different things and it is very dangerous to confuse the two. I believe recent statements to law enforcement about not being overly concerned with how tough they're being with suspects lends credence to my position.

I'm glad to hear you've joined the AK crowd David. I wonder just how many of us were honestly influenced by this?

Just got a new Superior Mater series 50 from Parkers Safe, He even brought it out July 4th and set it up. After talking to another company in the area and going out and looking, They never returned the 5 calls I placed on getting other info. Ended up calling Arron, he was very pleasant to deal with over a few months as I was deciding what to get. Ended up with the SM50 and I'm very impressed with the quality and personal experience with Superior and Arron. A few thumbs up and Highly recommend him if you are looking for a safe.

Well, I think you just said what we all wish could say with better clarity and eloquence.

did not know this. Doesn't matter, I still wouldn't pay them a penny. <edit> this is where i got confused - I knew Andy Holt put something out about it last year, had to do some google-fu http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2016/05/27/tennessee-lawmaker-burns-traffic-camera-ticket-urges-ignore-them/85049454/ Was confused about what he said.

It is very nice to read (on a conservative forum) sane, considered thoughts that include respect for civil rights and due process when the victim is not someone like themselves. Correct me, if I'm wrong, but I don't think the TN Constitution allows for any type of "punishment". (The death penalty is a legislative instrument.) In fact, prisoners are supposed to be safe. I think THE purpose for incarceration is supposed to be to remove threats from society. Rehabilitation is more of a community based concept? Someone mentioned that there is nothing that can be done for a murder victim. I agree. So, the death penalty is maybe nothing more than retribution? An "eye for an eye" is not a legal concept. Courts exist to remove emotions from the equation so that we don't have a society made up of a lot of different Hatfields and McCoys. Having said that, I propose that incarceration be purged of any amenities (period.) No commissary, cigarettes, tv, etc. I bet that would not be pleasant for life, without parole. Prisoners need motivation to get out and stay out of jail. Guards need to be well trained and paid properly, given security clearances, wear cameras (with penalties for it not being activated,) and held to the highest standard, like any officer. But, I'm guessing taxes would never be raised for anything that isn't "for the kids." Yea, I'm a cynic, just like everyone else. Too many have become intolerant of anyone else's view, IMHO.

As Dolomite previously pointed out, the city or county or whoever will have insurance to cover any settlement that is reached. They weren't 60 miles outside of their jurisdiction. At least that's my understanding. A TN POST certified officer can operate anywhere within the state boundaries. I could be wrong about that but I've been told that by several officers. None of what you said makes a bit of difference. No amount of backstory or anything else changes the fact that they are torturing a man who is restrained.

I am a firm beliver that if you take a life and it is proven beyond all doubts that you should be put to death but only after all forensic tests have not clear you. This idea of givinga person all these appeals and letting them live on death row for 10 + years needs to be removed. Richard Speck murdered 6 student nurses in Chicago back in the 60's and their was zero doubt he did it yet he had some many appeals that he died of old age on death row awaiting execution. Zero justice was given to those 6 young girls he violently slaughtered. Those are things to need to be stopped and sentences need to be carried out. Those brothers that killed Frankie Jordan should still be in prison as they all had police records for many crimes and prior convictions!!!! I don't care how much the shooter said he is sorry will not bring Frankie back or give his family any comfort.

Wow! Fantastic news! I am very happy for you guys. Exciting times are ahead for you indeed.

Knight's Armament Company (KAC) SR-25 EMC x 762 QDC CQB Suppressor H&K USP Tactical x SilencerCo Osprey

From what I read, he was in the chair for 3 hours before they started hitting him with the taser hard. Not sure how long he was in it after the festivities started. Another trend I noticed while reading around on it was that the overwhelming defense that is being used in this case is (effectively) "but the cops have to deal with bad people all the time". WTF does that have to do with anything? Not much going for them on a strong defense.

BTW, jurisdictions have county insurance that will pay out instead of the tax payers in most cases.

Paper Form 1 (e-form got kicked back for an error on my part ) Filed 7/2/16 Approved 7/17/17 Received 7/27/17

Congrats! Get ready for everything to change for the better (mostly ).

The AK 47 in its Russian version (airborne is preferred) is a simple reliable weapon. in 1973 I found one after 4 months in the dirt of Suez canal. it was rusted. full of mud. I washed it in the canal. it was loaded. cocked and bullet in the chamber. it operated like new with its original muddy magazine. auto and single shots

Jointed the Army right out of high school 13F 6 years active 6 years NG went to automotive tech school at UTI worked for MB USA left there went to work for MACK truck in Lavergne for almost 6 years left there for a job with CSX Transportation in 2011 as a roadway mechanic held a regional job out if Radnor Yard for 6 years then in June a guy with more seniority rolled me now I am the parts / lead Roadway mechanic on a traveling System Production Team and live in a hotel 5 to 6 night's a week for all you guys who are Veterans thanks and all the LEO / CO thanks

My congratulations to you buddy!

Ham sandwich in the AK. I miss Dugan.

I was going to make a remark about the attitude but I think bersaguy has the right idea.

Color me cynical, because I have no problem whatsoever believing it.

If you have never been arrested it can be very, very traumatic. Imagine being forced, as an innocent person, to strip down to nothing and open up every nook and cranny in your body for inspection by a complete stranger. And when I say inspection I mean INSPECTION. Those officers will inspect places on her body that her husband has probably never seen. Argue at all, like proclaiming your innocence, and you can be tossed into a restraint chair. Then getting thrown into a cell with God knows who. And for someone who has never been in trouble before this is very traumatic. I don't believe anything should happen to the dispatch officer because people do make mistakes but the department needs to step up and do the right thing and apologize. But we will not see an apology, at least not initially, because an apology is an admission of guilt. It will not be until after any civil case that they will apologize, if they ever do. If I were an administrator I would be all over the media apologizing. I would also contact her and see what she wants then do everything in my power to make it happen. I would try to do everything I could to avoid going to court because juries can really do a number on a department and with sentiment towards LE today you would almost be guaranteed a huge payout if the jury had the right mix. And with all those mug shot newspapers and websites an innocent person will have their name slandered in minutes. Personally those mug shot places should only be allowed to post pictures AFTER a conviction. Just because someone is arrested does not mean they are guilty and it would seem like it is slanderous to post a picture and name of someone who has not been proven guilty in a court of law. I would like to throw this out. What probable cause did the officer have to search the serial number? She had a holster and I can understand disarming her while the officer dealt with the other individual but to run the serial number without probable cause would seem like a violation of the fourth amendment. If any of us were disarmed and our gun's serial number ran we would be really upset, especially if the gun you had is not tied to you. Despite the fact the officer had no PC the women was required to surrender the firearm so he could search. The officer should never have ran the serial number without being able to articulate why he believes he has the PC needed to investigate whether the gun was stolen. A holster does not mean the gun in it may be stolen, matter of fact a stolen gun would probably be a bit more hidden. Hope she gets her day in court and the jury awards her all she wants. In addition to suing for false arrest she should also sue the officer for violating her fourth amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. Also making the assumption that she put the firearm on because police were there is a bit over the top. Lets assume she did put her gun on just as they arrived. I often put my gun on before I get into a car and go anywhere as do a lot of us here. Then he goes and briefs the rest of the officers about how she armed herself when police arrived and how he is now nervous, that is EXACTLY how accidents happen.

I'd be lying if I said that movie isn't one of my favorites!

I think that training should go both ways. In recent shootings, very nervous LEO's have been involved.

You ready

Born in Huntsville AL, raised in Franklin TN. Father went from an FBI agent, to a NASA employee, to an Engineer for Atmos energy.... So math and self preservation were pounded into me for decades.... Ive been an automotive technician for my entire adult life, Ive been ASE master certified since I was 21, I have been L1 Advanced certified since I was 22... Ive worked for Subaru, Chevrolet, Nissan (and they thought I was great so...), Nissan corporate, and currently manage a franchise of an automotive shop in Cool Springs....

Seems like most if not all of these jobs have several things in common.....a can do attitude, attention to detail and a devotion of some sort whether it be family, duty or country. Just what I'd expect from a bunch of guys on a gun forum.

Parkers or safe house both are extremely good. They both get points for being a sponsor here because of approved vendors like them we get to be here