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The military is out to destroy an enemy. The police are not. The more officers want to dress up and act like the people they interact with are enemy combatants, it should come as no surprise when those people begin acting like enemy combatants. The requirements for justified deadly force should be the exact same for officers as it should any armed person. They are citizens and civilians, not an elite strike force taking out terrorists in Fallujah. What i find concerning is that so many officers and former officers seem to be incapable of considering that perhaps over the last several decades, police culture has played a role in building up to the situation we have today. I certainly don't mean to say any of the officers that have been shot deserved it, but to say that police culture has played absolutely no role in this and that 100% of the blame lies on the public is beyond ridiculous. Forget getting someone to say the officers have ever done anything wrong, we can't even get some folks to concede that maybe there are things they could do better. It's almost like talking to someone that's joined a cult Officers are are taught to take control of a situation. All too often, they attempt to do that by escalating the amount of force used. If armored trucks and more guns are their go to answer here, I think we're going to see a lot of things get worse. The citizens that officers are supposed to protect aren't the enemy. The more we get treated like we are, the more a segment of society is going to act like one. And I do think it's rather telling when folks who have been steeped in police culture decry using any new technology that could hold officers accountable like body cameras, but are eager for new guns, new body armor and military vehicles.

The fact still remains that crazy SOB's are murdering in cold blood police officers in the streets. There is no justification for that at all. Many things are broken in this country and blame starts from the Inciter in Chief down. All of you that seem to be able to predict things and know all the reasons may want to start using your powers to come up with reasonable, safe solutions because this crap happening in the streets is not the answer and does nothing to promote anything but more hate. Stupid people do stupid things.

Not a pilot but I still got a kick out of this one http://tribunist.com/technology/sr-71-blackbird-pilot-trolls-arrogant-fighter-pilot-with-ground-speed-check/?utm_source=MOH

Thanks to the generosity of an anonymous TGOer, we are celebrating Christmas in July. This TGOer is gifting a total of TEN (10) 1-year TGO Benefactor subscriptions. Amazing, right? Very awesome! *** A second generous TGOer has generously contributed thee (3) additional 1- year TGO Benefactor subscriptions. This brings the total to 13. RULES:Must have a minimum 30 posts prior to the creation of this giveaway. ORYou must have a minimum of one positive TGO iTrader feedback prior to the creation of this giveaway. If you have ANY negative feedback, you are not eligible to participate. Current Benefactors are not eligible to participate. If you meet the criteria above, simply post "Merry Christmas" to this thread for your chance to win. Ten (10) random winners will be chosen on Sunday, July 31, 2016. Merry Christmas and good luck to all. ***If anyone would like to add any 6-month, 1-year, or Lifetime Benefactor subscriptions to this giveaway, please let me know.***

Dave, the problem isn't about believing the officer or making silly statements like we think he decided to kill someone for no reason. That is counterproductive. In his mind, I am sure he believed what he said. The issue is whether or not the officer made the right decision in the overall context of the stop. We will never know the full story and camera's would help with that. The only way to improve the SOP's so these events happen less is to fully understand what happened in the moment. Snippets here and there don't help us do that effectively. More information is always better than less. If a cop has an issue wearing a camera, they don't need to be in the profession, simple as that.

Believe me, I wish we still lived in those times. Today's street thug would kill Barney on his first tour. Yesterday's Mayberry is now Methberry or Pilltown. While my grandfather who was once a lawman liked Andy Griffith, he reminded me that the show and town was a fictional place. Today's cop may actually start out as the friendly kid next door but they quickly get seasoned by continuous assaults, lies, and trickery. It is estimated that only 10-20% of the people you make contact with are the good, productive members of society. Society started the us verses them mentality; it wasn't the cops. More than once I got assaulted by the "victim" in a case. More often than not people will tell you one story and then tell you a different story once a case goes to court. Even if you have a statement or a recording they will say they were coerced into stating one thing over another. I have had very nice contacts with people on the street only to get back and find a complaint had been filed against me. I am all for video and audio recordings even though they only tell a part of the story. You often find yourself in a damned if you don't and damned if you do situations, and domestic situations may be the worst. I was always polite and always enjoyed talking to people. Believe me, I enjoyed talking to the normal people. You can quickly forget that there are good people in the world. I knew a lot of the citizens names in my town regardless of whether or not they had continuous calls for service or not. I never held a grudge once someone lied to me, and believe me, everyone lies to the police. I have had my own preacher lie to me before because I was wearing a badge.

What other evidence is available? If the officers had been wearing body cameras and the footage released we might be able to draw a different conclusion. Going off the evidence we have though, it looks like an otherwise innocent man was shot while reaching for his ID per the officer's directions.

I'm not downing anyone's choice of sports but I just can't watch those fights. I never could get into it. I don't see why people would want to do that to their bodies. What a blow.

@adamedwards_5 If you are willing to save up for a bit and go over your ~$200 range, the Aimpoint PRO is about the best overall value you can get these days. Post some pics of it on an AR if you have a chance. I'd be interested in seeing the mount for the SPARC II on an AR. The EoTech is better close in (IMO), because of the outer circle (65 MOA) that helps you get on target faster, and the rectangle window of an EoTech is easier to see from than the circular one in an Aimpoint. Out to 200, I'd call it a draw. Both are good though. More important than anything is the ability of the shooter and willingness to keep in practice.

I whole heartedly agree that culture is to blame for these situations, but on what culture we disagree. When I am pulled over, I don't disrespect the LEO, I don't try and second guess the reason for the stop. In my youth I too had run-ins with, lets say less than stellar, police officers, but that didn't make me out to hate the entire institution. Lately I have seen too many automatically start to argue with an officer even though they, the citizen, was in the wrong. For the most part No, you did not get pulled over because you were black, brown, or white trailer trash; you were either pulled over for a traffic offence, or worse yet because you match the description of someone who committed a crime. When an officer pulls you over for a traffic offence, he may not know that you just committed a robbery, car jacking, or murder and that you will not be taken in alive; He is just doing his job. When you are pulled over, you don't know that he just come off of a robbery where someone that looks like you just murdered the clerk and a couple of customers. You are armed, and in either case it is not smart to mouth off and make the situation worse, or worse yet make sudden movements triggering a response. The culture today is what is making it an us against them climate, and it's not entirely the police officers fault. I do believe that there needs to be a whole lot of changes on both sides to get the situation a bit better; but it will not be the way BLM wants it to be, and definitely not the way the Black Panther Party wants it. The numbers don't lie, it is not about race since whites, blacks and browns get killed when something goes bad during a LEO confrontation, if anything the numbers on the black side seem a bit low to me considering the crime stats. I don't see anyone but BLM and BPP protesting though; and if they were honest about the whole thing they would be protesting in the inner cities against the criminals there instead of Capitol Hill.

Sure. I'm old enough to remember a Mayberry type police force in my small hometown, complete with officers who wore a tie instead of bdu's. You could actually have a conversation with these gentlemen, and knew them by name. People respected them because they earned it. This is a far cry from what one encounters on the street today. I see an us versus them mentality among today's officers that wasn't always present.

I've never worked as a civilian officer, so I can't speak to their experiences. I did work as a 95B Military Policeman in the old days, and there are a few things that the civilians can learn from their military counterparts. Tact, communication and deescalation/escalation of force skills. Many times as an MP we would deal with guys who could out shoot us or beat the hell out of us in seconds. The skills that I mentioned above, especially effective communication, deescalated most situations. Sometimes it seems that civilian cops can't deescalate a situation by talking, but recently, often times it doesn't appear that the level of force used was inappropriate for the threat. I agree with chucktshoes that unless police departments reevaluate and revamp their training to end the perception of being an occupying force in the communities in which they serve, we are only seeing the beginning of the push back.

In response to police use of force, it would do a whole lot for public relations of cops didn't walk around with their hand on the grip of their pistol while still holstered. Walking up on a simple traffic stop, whether it be speeding or running a stop sign or even something simpler than that, they have no reason to have their hand on their gun as well as a stand of fish attitude. They shouldn't be drawing their gun every time the wind changes direction either. They should have the same guidelines as a civilian in regards to drawing their firearm. Immediate threat only. As a civilian, I can't go around pointing my gun at people just because they act threatening or refuse to comply to what I say. I say a large part of the problem is a lot of officers especially the younger ones are ex military and they haven't completely gotten away from the "us vs them" mentality. It's not a war and the civilians are not the enemy. Until this is remedied, I don't see this problem getting any better. If the civilians and police as a whole had a mutual respect for each other, these murderers would have no place to hide.

Postage has been printed, the USPS has been paid, and I am scheduling a pick-up of the boxes as soon as their site lets me do so. This was an interesting experience, for sure. I hope everyone likes their tumblers when they arrive!

Open Carry/2nd Amendment is just the low hanging fruit. I wonder how many other laws and rights they'd like to see curbed. I'm sure we'll see some out of sight, out of mind "free-speech zones" to take care of the 1st Amendment and it's pesky guarantees of free speech and peaceable assembly to petition. They probably wish the 4th Amendment wasn't around either so they could stop, frisk, and check the bags of anyone in and around downtown Cleveland. Of course, it would only be temporary and never extended to full time under the guise of some continuing emergency. Not without some Orwellian sounding name like PATRIOT Act...oh, wait.

Jesus. Flying knee to the forehead.

Have noticed that when in the expanded view, like: Used to be, if you clicked on latest topic on the right, like "Double Standard for Police..", it would go to first unread post, same as if clicking icon to the left of a topic thread inside the individual forum view. But only goes to first post in the thread now. Not a biggie, but I generally peruse whole forum in the above view and often like to click on the latest response from there. - OS

I had all of these out today to make some sheaths for my Etsy shop and felt the need to get a group photo. From left to right is the Husqvarna 13" Hatchet, Gransfors Bruk #410 Mini Hatchet, Wetterlings #115 Hunter Hatchet, Gransfors Bruk #415 Wilderness Hatchet, and Gransfors Bruk #420 Small Forest Axe. Although I bought these primarily for making sheaths, they do get some use as well. It goes without saying that the Gransfors tools are simply works of art, but the prize for the best handle goes to the Wetterlings with it's super grain that is parallel and very tight. My favorite for size, weight, and functionality is probably the GB Wilderness Hatchet. The GB Mini is a super cool little cutting tool that I think, in the right hands, can easily take on many tasks commonly reserved for a knife. I've owned the Wetterlings the longest and I've given it plenty of use for splitting logs for a campfire, so it will always have a special place in my heart. Since the bit is ground a little thicker than the GB hatchets, it tends to be my go-to hatchet around the house and when car camping. For the money, the Husqvarna is the best bang for your buck since the head is Swedish steel forged by Hultafors Bruk and is fitted to a good quality hickory handle. I think one would be hard pressed to find a better hatchet with the quality and features it has for less than it's $40 price tag.

No. Unless possibly while being towed on the highway. " "Motor vehicle" has the same meaning as defined in § 55-1-103 " - OS

I'll play.... Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas in July! Thanks!!!

I would start with a good clean and lube. It sounds like fouling to me. About the only other thing that could cause those symptoms would be a weak slide spring, but I would think that progressively getting worse would be unlikely.

Don't see the problem. Do it while you're young before you can't.

Merry Christmas. Thanks to those who put this together.

Merry Christmas. Very cool to hear.

The "vehicle" part was already in there all along. That was the irony, that the "castle doctrine" covered your car, yet unlike your home, you couldn't legally carry in it without a permit. AFAIK, this was the main argument for opening up carry for everyone in vehicle, to bring it in line with what the statute already claimed to give you. Have also always thought that 39-17-1322 was a partial and wimpy concession of that, such that at least you wouldn't be charged with illegal carry if you had to defend yourself in the vehicle. - OS

It's covered vehicles for 2 or more decades.

It's quite a bit out of your budget, by IMHO the Aimpoint Micro is still the tops for this sort of application. The PRO is a very good choice that gets closer to your price range. I love my Eotechs, and still use them on a lot of guns, but for social purposes you just can't beat the "turn it on, leave it on, runs for years" aspect of the Aimpoints.

If you stop and think about it when an MMA fighter is hurt the fight is stopped. When a boxer is hurt they don't stop the fight until the third standing eight count in the same round. An MMA fighter may take harder hits but the boxers take more. This may all change a few years down the road when the cumulative effects add up on these guys.

The conversations about police culture being partly to blame for the current backlash against law enforcement need to also consider that culture as a whole has changed greatly. We have far too many people that feel that everyone else, or someone else is to blame for they type of life they are leading. Personal responsibility is not considered to be a virtue by many people today. Culture as a whole is very much about blame and not taking responsibility. We ask the police to take more and more responsibility for things like mental health screening, social work, family & drug counseling, the list is HUGE. As our culture as a whole has changed so have the many subcultures within it, the police are not immune to this. Lets STOP pointing fingers at those we can easily label and identify and look within our own communities, states, and the federal government for the real causes of this divisive violent behavior. Many programs intended to have positive results have only made whole blocks of people dependent rather than independent. Best intentions can have unintended consequences. Rather than band aid a new program on top of a failed one we should end those programs that create dependencies and replace them with programs that create independence (feed a man vs teach him to fish). Individual independence is the founding principal of our country and in the last 240ish years we have lost sight of that. We can use this thread to poke at each other but are we making the situation better? I admit I don't have the answers on my own for the country, but I have worked very hard to instill the value of individual independence in my children. I could do that, now that they are grown I'm looking elsewhere to try and continue to do the same. We need to change our culture as a whole rather than divide it up into bits and pieces and tear it apart...

Title edited to spell the name of the city correctly.

It's a rifle. What scope? Sighted for what? fwiw, not an AR.

Merry Christmas Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Merry Christmas Hats off to the people who donated!!

I'll be making my first trip there

A second generous TGOer has generously contributed thee (3) additional 1- year TGO Benefactor subscriptions. This brings the total 13.

I see no hate here, and no one is condoning murder. Sooner or later, however, if police treat people wrongly enough, people will get tired of it and do something about it. That's what you see happening now. Is the media helping to gin this up? YES Is your president helping to gin this up? YES Do police have some responsibility in ginning this up? ABSOLUTELY Is it going to get worse? I'd think so How do we fix it? I don't have a clue

When I shot 45 in competition, to help with faster follow up shots, the 5grn bullseye under a 200grn makes major still and is a soft shooter. I actually load .40 to similar specs, 200 at 850 for 3gun.

Go up to $400, get the aimpoint pro. 200yds with a 50yd zero is cake. With recent issue/recall I wouldn't touch eotech. Primary arms advanced micro dot is really nice for about $200 with a mount. Long battery life.

I don’t think things need to get worse before they get better. I also don’t think there will be a break down in society. An attack on our Police Officers is an attack on us; I think it will take a minute for most folks to realize that, but then things will change. I don’t know that there is much the Federal government can do other than get Obama to quit giving these criminals some legitimacy. Local governments need simply give their Police Officer the tools to kill the people that are attacking them and stand by their Officers when they are attacked by criminals.

Before the garden started to produce I had intended on purchasing a real nice food processor, a food vacuum sealer and a dehydrator myself. But the way the political climate is and the things that are occurring, I reallocated those funds for a back up AR-15 and some ammunition. Oh well, next year. I did 14 quarts of green beans this morning. Sure is nice to be able to do 14 quarts at a time compared to seven with my old caner. Sure like that American pressure caner I bought. A tad expensive but it will out last me and then my kids.

I find it disturbing that bring up the fact that police officers were killed today generated essentially hateful comments that its the police communities fault. Then all the government overreach crap comes out again. Some of you are so filled with twisted hatred for police that you disappoint me as members of this community. Most of you promoting this hate base your knowledge on media garbage and having had a negative contact with a police officer. I did a full police career and encountered a lot of cop haters. Some of them just hated cops, some of them were stark raving mad...and hated cops. Some of you guys need to find something or someone else to hate on.

"They" in this case is the police union. So, it's not the usual crowd trying to tell us that open carry is a public danger. I don't say that to advocate an anti-police position, but I do think that they are susceptible to the "government knows best" mindset. Especially as the local PD are the ones in charge of the outer zones, most likely to see incidents, people will be looking to them if anything bad happens. But still, screw them for thinking there should be an exception to state law. As to it getting done, or not...I'm honestly not sure. One open carry asshat making a scene that gets recorded could change things easily enough. I'm glad Gov. Kasich is holding the line thus far. Laws aren't suggestions or only applicable in the good times. We'll see if it holds through for the entire convention.

All... I been shootin handguns all my life, and im a pretty old geezer... There ain't many i ain't shot or handled... I've carried everything from 1911's; revolvers (...smiths: small, medium, and large... ruger: blackhawks to vaquero sheriffs...); glocks:....(. little bitty, baby to big..); Sigs:.(... little bitty to bitty...)... Ya get the picture... Since ive gotten older and more crippled up, i tote a smith j frame airweight, a 938 sig, or a itty bitty glock in my pocket, and a great big pistol in the car.... Don't be fooled by the marketing hype; there aint no new "magic calibers" nor "mo better" pistols... The good news is that most all handguns work well... Better now than they did in the "good ole days"; mostly due to the advances in CNC machining and bullet design; especially for the semiautos.. I like 'em all, even the damnable "tupperware" pistolas... Bottom line... Pick the one you like and take the time to shoot it alot... Nothin teaches you ta shoot like shootin... aged leroy the gimp... 69 yrs old and still here...

Just one more reason I am not an advocate for open carry. I think it's easy to point to multiple reasons why it's a bad idea. I'm also highly certain many places have posted their businesses specifically in response to these people who choose to OC, most of whom I believe do it for attention.

Just drill and tap the rear receiver. Pretty much everything aftermarket uses that pattern anyway.

Hey now.... Those are geeks, not nerds. If you're going to stereotype, at least use the correct one.

If you aren't hunting or competition shooting with it, the S&W M&P 22 Compact is hard to beat, best of its kind IMO. MSRP is $389. I have seen them for $299 new in the gun shop. A bit over budget, but it is hard to find a quality and durable .22 pistol. Or look at a Ruger Mark 2/3 or a Buckmark. Don't be afraid to buy a used one.The ruger will last many lifetimes.