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I'm convinced that y'all just like to argue :)

Good lord folks can't get ammo at the price they think they should and they go all to pieces. If you were prepared you would not have to pay high prices for ammo. If you were not then suck it up and pay the prices or don't shoot. It is no ones fault but yours if you don't have ammo. Blame it on the scalpers the Walmart or what ever but look in the mirror and there is the only person at fault. The prices are high because the demand is high. That is life. Price of guns is dropping and ammo should follow. Be patient don't shoot or pay the high prices or get out and spend the time and effort to find it at cheaper prices. Things will get better or they won't. Up to you to decide when to buy or not. Today's prices may be cheap tomorrow. I think it will go back down but maybe it won't. If you don't like the prices don't buy it it really is pretty simple. I don't like the high price of gas but that is life you buy it or don't drive.

I am really looking forward to the evidence presented at trial from both sides.

I'm just not afraid to point out the obvious, & wasn't refering directly to any of our fellow forumites doing that though, just the media and race-hustlers like Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson who apparently needed to manufacture another incident/cause to milk. If Trayvon had been white or hispanic or asian or whatever, &/or if Zimmerman would had also been black, everyone would have said "well, if you brutally assault & repeatedly bash another person's head with or against something really hard, you should be shot". This discussion would had been 2 pages with everyone in agreement. For me this is really simple (and should have been for everyone). 1.) Did Trayvon brutally assault & repeatedly bash Zimmermans head into the sidewalk? Yes/no. 2.) Did Zimmerman have a "reasonable belief" that he was in immediate danger of sustaining SBI &/or possibly being killed by Trayvon's actions when he discharged his weapon Yes/no See how easy & uncomplicated that is? The ethnicity of the participants, their age, their height, their weight, their backgrounds, their gender, their religious or political beliefs, none of that other irrelevant garbage is in those two above equasions. I don't care if it was Mother Teresa &/or the Pope on top of me violently bashing my head into the sidewalk, I'm going to do whatever I have to to keep my brain-bucket from being busted open.

I am posting this after only getting to page 2. Ill read the rest and maybe amend.     At the risk of being labeled as something I am not I will relate a story.   When I was at South-Doyle Middle School in Knoxville we had a deck built in our backyard. A family friend, who was a brick mason primarily but knew enough carpentry to handle the job, did the work. He hired a friend of his to help him out.   A week after work was complete my grandfather, who lived up the street, noticed a car driving down in the middle of the day with three black guys in it. We lived on a dead end street and no one was anything but white. He saw them pull up to our yard and stop. At this point he walks inside, picks up a shotgun, and starts walking down the street. About one house down the car gives two quick honks and one of the occupants hurry's from our back yard and jumps in the car and they drive to the end of the road turn around haul ass out of there. My grandfather noted the make model and color and told us that afternoon. When we checked the back a tire iron was dropped beside the deck and we had pry marks on the door and frame. We told our friend the info and he said that it was his friend's brother's car by the description and that he was recently released from jail.   I relate this because at first glance these men were not doing anything illegal but yet based on prior history in our neighborhood they warranted a closer look. I do not fault George Zimmerman for watching and following Trayvon Martin. He was well within his legal rights and I think a moral obligation to do so. If you sit back and let your friends and neighbors be victims of crime I feel you are a poor excuse for a person.    Of course there is a line you should not cross. The question in this case to me is who crossed it? Did GZ attempt to break contact and was pursued or did he instigate the confrontation by more than just observing TM's actions and location?

    We don't know what the evidence is.  Here's the way I see it, the incident happened in February and they didn't arrest GZ until weeks later and only after there was a big media blow-up.   How many people have you seen that was involved in a shooting, taken in immediately, the evidence (in your words) didn't backup Z's claim and was released?  I'm not an LEO or anything, but would tend to think that if you had someone involved in a fatal shooting and they were in custody, they would not be released if the evidence didn't match up with the story.   Unfortunately I believe GZ has become a fall guy for the media sensationalists.

It will be a good trial to follow.

If being gay didn't come with so many restrictions that us straights don't have to deal with, I'd be willing to bet we'd hear a lot less about the gays.   Some of the same arguments being used today regarding gays were once used to treat women and blacks as second-class citizens. When the Women's Rights Movement began in the mid-1800's, I'm sure there were plenty of men who thought the world as they knew it was coming to an end.

Investigate the unknown person roaming his neighborhood. Just as if I saw a random walking down my street I would watch to see where he was going. Double if I had a string of break-ins. That is just as a concerned citizen. As a neighborhood watch volunteer I would feel it was my duty to report and maintain visual contact. If I was watching someone and they took off running as they saw that I was observing them I  would be of the opinion that they ran because they were guilty of something.   If I noticed a person breaking into my neighbors house I would probably arm myself and walk outside to where I had a clear view of the home, any vehicle, any accomplices, and any further actions while I awaited the police. Seeing as I also have a flip camera I would probably pick that up to turn on and use as well.    Would I be in the wrong? If I was approached and attacked by said home intruders in a public street or sidewalk would I be expected to have my head bashed in because I decided that being a witness was more important than sitting back and letting people do whatever they want left unchecked?

damn right

  Maybe he tried that a number of times in the past, and got poor results. This whole thing didn't happen in a vacuum. It was a neighborhood that had been plagued by break-ins. If we take away all our biases and deal with what is really documented for a minute, we may get closer to the truth. Zimmerman's comment, "they always get away" is significant. If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't confront the suspicious person, but I may not let them out of my sight either. I have just always assumed that he was doing that, and will continue until I see proof of something else.

Why do people keep saying that he had no "authority" to investigate?

   It isn’t an unfounded allegation; it’s an undisputed fact. What did Martin do that gave Zimmerman the cause or authority to chase him when he was trying to get away from a guy following him and ultimately chasing him? Zimmerman was committing a crime when it turned into a pursuit. Disengaged? What authority or right did he have to “engage” in the first place? I guess a lot of this depends on who people identify with. Some seem to think convicting Zimmerman will somehow limit their ability to protect themselves. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Do any of you plan on jumping out of your truck and chasing a kid that you think is suspicious? I don’t. I identify with Martin. If I am walking down the street and some citizen thinks I look suspicious and he wants to check me out and starts approaching me in a threatening manner; I will display a weapon, that is my right to defend myself as an innocent citizen. If he has a gun a decides to draw; one of us is probably going to die. If I was the survivor and he was a dead neighborhood watch person I hate to think you would all be saying I had no right to protect myself in an unprovoked attack.

  Zimmerman lied in sworn testimony. His wife was arrested for perjury for her part. If the Judge allows all this BS about Martin in, he will also have to allow the past bad acts of Zimmerman in. His lying under oath, domestic violence, attacking a cop; he’s toast as far as credibility. OJ walked because three cops took the stand and lied. The jury decided to disregard their testimony and they were not left with enough for a conviction. If they throw out all statements made by Zimmerman; they will be left with a dead kid that did nothing wrong. I don't belive anything Zimmerman says.

One reason that gays want the Scouts to stop the nonsense, is that when gay boys were found out, whether they came out on their own or were outed by someone else, they were immediately kicked out of scouts.  True, this is a private organization, but it's still discrimination, any way you look at it.  Gays are not looking for their on special rights, they just want to be treated like everyone else, which means they are treated fairly and humanely; not like the pariahs, as they are at times now.   As to abuse, I'd say there is by far much more abuse perpetuated on children of both sexes, by straight family members, than by gay men, inside or outside the family.  Sexual child abuse, just like rape, is a crime of power and dominance, that uses sex for that end.   As for BSA and any kind of child abuse, if you are or were an adult affiliated with scouting, either as an Assistant Scout Master, Scout Master, or a Troop Committee Member, you know that  the BSA and Scout Troops practice Two Deep Leadership for meetings, events and outings.  That means there is no one-on-one private interaction between an adult and a Scout.  If a Scout Master needs to talk to a Scout about a private matter, he has to have another adult present or have that meeting in a room where the door is open and in full view of other adults.  If a troop is at camp, and for some reason a Scout Master must go into the shower with a boy, then two adults must go in.  All adults in leadership positions are required to go through a background check EVERY YEAR, as long as they are affiliated with Scouting.  When I was an Assistant Scout Master, when our troop was on an outing, we usually had as many fathers and older brothers with the troop, as we had Scouts.  And most of the Troops we interacted with, were the same way.  I won't say abuse cannot happen, but I will say it's would be damned hard.    Also, I've seen some of you talk about older boys praying on younger boys.  That is also something that would not be easy, since most troops divide their Patrols up by age group.  If they get a whole Cub Scout unit coming into their Troop, that specific group stays together in a Patrol.  That's what happened with my son's Cub Scout unit.  We all went to the same Boy Scout Troop as a new Patrolch elected their own leadership.  On outings, each patrol planned their part of the outing and they worked together as a Patrol, just like how in the Army, squads work together.  Again, I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I'm saying it would be hard.  Scouting is now set up to protect kids.

If it doesn't fit the "Justice for Trayvon" narative they'll just ignore it, doesn't matter if Zimmerman was on the phone to 911, it doesn't matter that he was ambushed by Trayvon, it doesn't matter that he was having his head smashed repeatedly into the sidewalk or that he was screaming for help when he discharged his weapon. A *white* hispanic killed a black, that's all that seems to matter.

  DAs do not always follow what the investigator wants.  I have had it work both ways:  I have asked prosecutors the ask for bond on someone, only to have them recommend them to be released without bond.  Also, I had prosecutor charge someone where I did not feel there was sufficient evidence, only to have the prosecutor drop the charges at the preliminary hearing.   As an investigator, I personally went out of my to not make any recommendations to prosecutors regarding charges.  I did not feel that was my job.  My job was to investigate the incident, gather all the facts and evidence, and present that to the prosecutor and let them make the decision.  Most of the time, the prosecutor did what I felt was right, but on a few occasions, they did the opposite.

Your statement completely ignores the statements made by Zimmerman. 1. That he cried out for help repeatedly, but no help came. 2. That Zimmermans head was being bashed against the ground by someone younger and in much better shape and at least 4" taller, with several inches of reach on him and on top of him and would not stop the beating. 3. That Martin saw his gun and was trying to get it out of his holster, escalating the danger to Zimmerman. This is a far cry from "went right to deadly force."

I just can’t dismiss this as a race issue. If I was a member of the black community and I had to yell racism to bring attention to this and get justice; so be it. I’m not convinced race was a determining factor in Zimmerman picking Martin out, but I’m not sure it wasn’t. If I was the lawyers on either side I would be going through all the calls he made to Police and find out. I think the bigger issue was Zimmerman wanting to be cop. He wanted to be a cop; that is no secret. He had a couple of obstacles in his way. His girlfriend had accused him of domestic violence and he had been arrested for assaulting a Police Officer during an altercation in a bar. No department was going to hire him. It is made very clear to Neighborhood watch people they do not engage. I’m unfamiliar with Florida law. What “right” did he have as a neighborhood watch captain; do they have some kind of authority? Police Officers and licensed Security Guards have the training and ability to escalate the level of force used. He did not have that training or ability; he went right to deadly force. If he was “patrolling” the neighborhood why did he not have mace, a Taser, a baton or the ability to call backup? He didn’t have any more right than any other citizen to do that, but when you try to approach someone that has committed no crime but is just suspicious to you, and they run in fear; you stop. Trying to make Martin out to be a thug because he had smoked pot and talked about guns in laughable when he has no criminal record and your client has two documented acts of violence, carried a gun, and has now shot a kid to death.

A little leeway is one thing, ... brutally assaulting & repeatedly bashing another person's skull into a cement sidewalk is another. I have no sympathy for Trayvon, karma wasted no time in rewarding him with what he earned. And this whole "Justice for Trayvon" thing has been racially motivated, the sickening claims of "Trayvon would still be alive if he had been a white kid!" nonsense started from the very beginning. I have no doubt that Zimmerman (or anyone else in that situation) would have shot a white or hispanic or asian or whatever if they were the one who had been on top of him trying to spill his brains all over that sidewalk that night. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Zimmerman didn't shoot Trayvon because he was black, Zimmerman shot Trayvon because Trayvon was attempting to smash Zimmerman's head open.

I think the biggest hit the BSA took was when they were banned from holding meetings in schools and from camping on public land. That seemed to me to make finding places to hold meetings more difficult and made it more difficult to get boys back and forth to the meetings and it made finding places to hold events like campouts very difficult. Regardless of what the council voted, many disagree with the decision. If many parents of scouts are like me, they are against ANY open display or discussion of sexuality with their young boys, not just homosexuality. It's an issue that simply shouldn't have ever come up. Nobody in the BSA needs to know a kid's sexual tendencies and nobody there to be a scout needs for everyone to know. So their ranks will dwindle even more, b/c a few people have a perverse need for everyone to know their business.

You may not be able to force me into your religion, but when enough of you get together and vote for certain rules, laws etc. based on your religious beliefs, I am most certainly forced to live my life based on your religious beliefs. But that's the way out system currently operates, and I accept it for what it is.

I call them like I see them & I am not surprised that you're offended, but I am not a fan of thuggery or thugs, regardless of their color, you do remember that whole "content of their character" speech? anyway I am thoroughly disgusted by the folks trying to turn this Trayvon thug into some kind of martyr because of his skin color, not because of the content of his character. If my being disgusted by that offends you, well then the problem is on your end, not mine.

Give more than you get, and you will get more than you need. Thus is true for the good and bad you do in life. CONGRATS

I read the following column with dismay. I think we all know who gave the order to stand down and let Americans die at the hands of terrorist in Benghazi. It was the Commander in Chief, Barrack Hussein Obama. I think this "man" just sits and waits for opportunities to diminish our image of being a strong nation and one not to mess with. I personally feel that BHO and Hilliary should be tried for treason against the USA and Penetta, Gates and others should be in prison for perjury. http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/us_military_we_could_have_saved_ambassador_stevens.html

Yep I'm still waiting to see someone join the board who is an Arab that loves guns, and who is also an atheist and homosexual. They'd qualify for an unholy trinity according to some of the threads around here. I love this board and there are some awesome people here, but occasionally....

What's happening with the BSA is just symptomatic of a society in decline.   Anyone who's been involved with Scouting in the past decade has seen this coming. We knew it was a matter of time. I'm just glad my son got through the program before it went down the tubes.

As usual, another awesome day on the MCTS range.   Boy those little plates can be frustrating :cry:   http://youtu.be/Zc4OqDxjuYo  

Here are some pics of the stages. The "Polish Plate Rack" stage. [url=http://s250.photobucket.com/user/JRFinkle/media/20130526_075721.jpg.html][/URL] Poppers and small head plates. Very small out about 15 yards. [url=http://s250.photobucket.com/user/JRFinkle/media/20130526_080638.jpg.html][/URL] [url=http://s250.photobucket.com/user/JRFinkle/media/20130526_080652.jpg.html][/URL] "Texas Star" stage. [url=http://s250.photobucket.com/user/JRFinkle/media/20130526_103648.jpg.html][/URL]

  We still don't know who made contact with who. Zimmerman didn't indicate in the tapes that he wanted to make contact at all. Every indication is that he wanted the police to make contact, if he didn't manage to slip away as usual.

He isn't a police officer. He was not conducting an official investigation. He was just a guy who saw something that looked funny and decided it was worth taking another look. He doesnt conduct terry stops as was mentioned earlier. He doesnt have RAS or PC requirements to ask someone a question. He doesnt have any restrictions to observe someone walking down a public sidewalk or in this case a private walk to which he was a paying resident of.

Does that manual carry penalty of law? No? Then what does it matter. He isn't protected from anything based on his being a neighborhood watch volunteer.

Not to worry, Leroy. The regulators are gonna keep my knives from getting much bigger :). Gotta protect the children, and all. I figure if you're gonna slice something, you might as well do it all at once :)

I am white also. I could care less about the race of the other parties involved here. I'm personally questioning Zmans actions. This whole thing is based on what Zman said, and I for one don't buy half of it. Zmans true colors have come out over the months and I question his character.   Dave S

The 60's hippies intended to "...re-write the immutable laws..." for everything.  Barak Obama is a product of that culture; so is Hillary (...and Bill...); only Bill is smart enough to know its baloney.  Obama, Hillary and others like them could care less about the lives of Americans.  They are, in fact, treasonous, delerlict in action, bankrupt in ethics, and are the anthesis of what this country was founded on.  They are guilty of treason, but will be charged with nothing.  They are above the law, due to the fact that they are in an elite political class that proclaims that "we are a nation of laws" while violating them with impunity.  Simply put, they are not subject to the same laws as us "delightful rustic" citizens.  They have friends in high places.   They are thoroughly dangerous people (...due to their position in government and the authority they carry...) who have managed to fool other childish, foolish, equally bankrupt folks into believing they are patriots and the "best and brightest".  They worship the god of power and are the very fullfillment of the words in Isaiah that say"...woe to them who call evil good...".  Their motto is "...How can we fool 'em today....? ".    Remember, elections have consequences.  The American people are finding out just how bad some of these consequences can be.  How's all this new political landscape workin out for ya?  It looks like treason and national self destruction to me.   leroy

Are you buying these as collectors, or do you plan on using them? I may pick up one of the blemished 300's from KershawGuy.

The "Bottoms" is in Fayetteville( close to Goodman and the County fair-grounds). It really isn't that bad there, just i would stay away after dark. You can find good property south and southeast of Fayetteville if you're looking for a bargain. If it is just you and the wife, (Buy my house). lol.    Small town it is, yes. But the cost of living isn't that bad, Considering this.Property tax(theft) is higher in the city, but out in the county it isn't that much. Yearly tags for vehicles went up this year to $100 ( paying for a new jail). And whatever you do, Don't buy your gas ( fuel) here, go to either Winchester, Tullahoma or Hazel Green( trust me, it's .20 cheaper per gallon everywhere else). There are a lot of good places to eat, though the supermarket selection is low.   If you have any other questions, feel free to ask( about Fayetteville).

In the initial release of the 911 tapes NBC edited the conversation to make it sound exactly as you remember it. In fact, Z sued them over it and they even released a public apology. The undoctored tapes were later released and included Z giving a rough physical description, mostly of what TM was wearing. The dispatcher is the one that pressed GZ to speculate on the race of the suspect. In my head, I hear GZ saying this in reference to criminals, not black people. I got that impression, because the police had said there had been a rash of B&E's in the neighborhood. There was a crime ridden part of town on one side, a few stores and other businesses on the other side, and this gated community in between. I think the foot traffic through the neighborhood was what most suspected was source of the break-ins. Somebody correct me, if I'm wrong, but didn't I read somewhere that someone reported seeing someone that looked like Martin lookin in windows and patio doors? I don't think it was Zimmerman, but I seem to recall somebody else saying this.

I believe — in your frustration for the ways in which certain aspects of life as you once knew it appear to be changing — you are unjustly generalizing and clumping far too many people into one large group that you consider the enemy. I don't believe issue "A" necessarily always effects issue "B", and I certainly don't believe we all need to agree on every issue in order to be on the same team. Tunnel vision can be just as destructive as nearsightedness, if not more so. This whole generalized us versus them mentality has not only gotten way out of hand, but it's also forced a lot of them to leave us. In the grand scheme of things, the gay issue couldn't be a bigger non-issue, in my opinion. The religious-right's staunch contempt for how two adult of the same sex choose to live their personal lives has forced otherwise right-leaning Republicans to become left-leaning Democrats. I know of at least a couple perfect example of this. Other than the whole being gay thing, they conduct their lives in much of the same ways as a stereotypical right-leaning Republican, but they feel forced to vote for Democrats so they can preserve the happiness of being in a same-sex relationship. The gay issue is one battle the Right refuses to admit they've lost. No matter how much you despise it, there is no turning back. The Right is outnumbered by the Left on this issue, and will soon be outnumbered by its own in the not-so-distant-future. You can suck it up and move on, or you can spend your last precious days on Earth dwelling on what could have or should have been. There are far bigger fish to fry. In the art of war, do we rarely always agree with those who's got our back.

Why bother having any immigration laws at all if no-one is going to either abide or bother to enforce them anyway?

Fred, You will not have to swing by RJ Martins booth for me this year, he is holding my knife and sending it to me when I get home but thanks for doing that for me last year!

I would, without a doubt, have someone's ass if they did that. I say it all the time that people are aweful and this is just another cause of people being aweful. If my dog was aggressive towards someone and was not on my property then yeah defend yourself.   I find it hard to believe a mayor was at the scene of a loose dog unless they were there for some other reason. Hate to bring up conspiracy crap but who is to say they didn't let the dog go in the first place. There were 409 residents in Dowell according to the last census, hard to believe there isn't more to the story.   I bet there is a background between all those involved, the mayor, the officer and the dog's owners. Too bad the dog had to pay the price for some aweful humans.

So....it's just people who try to protect their neighborhoods you have a problem with? My neighborhood saw a rash of burglaries in 2011 so in 2012, guess what...we formed a neighborhood watch.  Since then, burglaries have decreased from two or three a week to about one per month.  I suppose we could have just sat in our homes and let the cops do their job but I for one prefer less burglaries.

Love it!!!! Short, sweet, and right to the point. Awesome how she points out that her safety is her responsibility.

  There you go using logic at a time like this. :)   Yeah, I phrased that incorrectly. I meant that many of the AKs floating around are made with parts made in ComBloc nations.   Ask a person paying $900 for a Century WASR-10 where AK's are made.

I LOVE how some people try to make you feel guilty and that there's something wrong with you if you don't fully accept homosexuals trying to normalize their behavior.   What's next? Churches losing their tax exempt status because they don't adopt a "non-discrimination" policy that is completely antithetical to their belief system?   Why are we being forced to change what we believe? How does forced acceptance have any element whatsoever of "fairness"?

I have been a leader as well as my father , I'm sorry I just don't approve of it.

I don't go to Nashville & Gomorrah any more than I have to and when I do, it's in and out. I ain't there takin in the scenery.

Congrats on your shooting Ryan. You and Norma did great.