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[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354918091' post='856635'] Some of us weigh the known f-a-c-t-s, testimony and indications based on the information made public thus far, others gobble up the version that the [i]media[/i] serves. [/quote] If you are trying to call me an arm chair quarterback or saying I am passing judgment on this guy; I am guilty as charged. As I have said many times; it’s what we do, it’s who we are. It’s just a discussion. I know the facts in this case and I know the media hype. The facts that are not in dispute do not look good for Zimmerman. I’m crystal clear on the “concepts”. Although I acknowledge that I know nothing about Florida criminal law. Again… I know this is not a popular opinion on this forum; but it is mine. I’m open to discussion of the facts or even our thoughts while we armchair quarter back. But I’m not going to have a discussion with anyone that is obviously making personal attacks. I stood up for Zimmerman when they tried to keep him in jail. He doesn’t appear to be a flight risk and his life is in danger if he is in jail; let him stay out. I could not believe it when the New Black Panthers put a hit out on him and both the Justice Department and the State of Florida failed to act on that. That was without a doubt race driven. However, now it’s time for a trial. [quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354907215' post='856568'] The DA did not have enough to charge GZ. After NBC released the doctored recording and the resulting public outcry and protests, they brought in anther special DA to file charges. Even if you think GZ is guilty, you must admit that there is no evidence there to support malice or premeditation needed for 2nd degree murder. [/quote] I will absolutely admit that I don’t think there is enough to convict on 2nd degree murder. I think his reckless and negligent actions rise to the level of Involuntary Manslaughter. However, in one of the first threads we had a forum member that said he was an expert on Florida law and that manslaughter was not an option. If a reckless, negligent act that led to death of an innocent person is not a crime in Florida; so be it, he will be acquitted. But I expect to hear the state present their case. Anything less is unsatisfactory. I kinda feel sorry for this guy. A prison sentence will probably be a death sentence for him. But then when I think about his actions; he shouldn’t walk free, that would not be justice.

I've learned one very important thing form the Zimmerman/Martin case... When I see someone walking through my neighborhood at night and it's someone I'm pretty sure doesn't live there (and yes, I do have a pretty good, although not perfect knowledge of my neighbors) and he looks like a gansta the only logical course of action for me is to cower in my house and hope he doesn't decide to break in (and if he decided to break into a neighbors house that's there problem). I now know this because obviously, if I make any attempt to leave my home and figure out if this 6'2" "kid" is a threat to me or my neighbors or whether he is just out for some skittles and soda and the "kid" decides to attack me because he thinks I'm following (even though I've clearly disengaged and is heading back to my vehicle) then I'm obviously the one in the wrong and I should just let him beat my brains against the sidewalk. Got it. I'm glad that's been cleared up for me.

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1354898179' post='856492'] There you go again....confusing fantasy with reality. The sweet, little, innocent "twelve year old" black kid was who the media and the race-baiters wanted you to think was the "victim"; not the thuggish, gansta looking 17 year old. EDIT: Now, just to be clear; I'm not in any way suggesting that someone deserves to be killed for the way they look...I'm just commenting on the outright lies presented by the media and the "black community". [/quote] "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon." May be one of the few times Obama actually told the truth... [IMG]http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac195/mikegideon1/TrayvonSuckerscopy.jpg[/IMG]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354884415' post='856362'] I have made no bones about it. I’m not on the “Innocent permit holder defended himself” bandwagon. Based on what I have read, this man accosted and murdered an innocent kid walking down the street. The elections over; let’s get on with a trial.[/quote] That you hold the view you do when all of the actual evidence supports the claims of GZ is exactly why NBC is getting sued. They did their job quite well in painting a picture of GZ as a vigilante racist and tainting the prospective jury pool. I hope GZ gets enough money out of the bastards to not only pay for his criminal defense in the farce of a prosecution, but to have enough left over to not have to work again.

That's right...he's on trial because he is a "white Hispanic" (whatever the hell that is) and cute, little, Travon is black AND because Sharpton and Jackson, Obama and the other usual race-baiters needed to increase their coffers with donations.

[quote name='Chucktshoes' timestamp='1354859574' post='856311'] Tell us how you really feel! [/quote] I have made no bones about it. I’m not on the “Innocent permit holder defended himself” bandwagon. Based on what I have read, this man accosted and murdered an innocent kid walking down the street. The elections over; let’s get on with a trial.

I think the administration is planning and preparing for breadlines. Hard to use an EBT when your address is the local tent city. O'care regulations are going to make the remaining job market look like a chum line in a shark fishing tournament. One way or another, everyones' taxes are going to increase - some dramatically. There will be a domino effect, as more lose their jobs more jobs will be lost - dropoff in demand for goods and services as people are unable to pay for even food and shelter. Small business is taking one body blow after another. There are 3 classes of people looking pretty right now - the welfare class, the politically connected, and gov't employees. Obama/democratic party cannot allow any meaningful 'entitlement' reform, so the presses at Treasury are going to continue rolling 24/7. Dramatic inflation is inevitable, as the night follows the day cash will buy less. Foodstuffs are already sold in reduced portions at the same price. At some point, the financial ice will crack, and we're all in for a swim.

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1354930522' post='856711'] The geographic center of the state is there. You can go see the marker for a couple of seconds. [/quote] Back when I was surveying we stopped to eat lunch there one day. I told my crew chief " you know we ought to get a stake out and write 'actual center of the state' on it and hammer it in about 20' over that way".

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354926402' post='856671'] I know the facts in this case and I know the media hype. The facts that are not in dispute do not look good for Zimmerman. I’m crystal clear on the “concepts”. Although I acknowledge that I know nothing about Florida criminal law. Again… I know this is not a popular opinion on this forum; but it is mine. I’m open to discussion of the facts or even our thoughts while we armchair quarter back. But I’m not going to have a discussion with anyone that is obviously makking personal attacks. [/quote]Dave, no one is attacking you, not I for sure. But several of us are very confused that you take the position that you have stated and you say that you are basing it on the known facts of the case, it is obvious that we are not talking about the same 'facts', as we don't see how anyone could come to the conclusions that you have given the information that we (not you, for we don't know what you've read) have seen. It's almost as if someone is playing a cruel joke on all of us by feeding a few one story, and a few others a different story. Just rying to explain our surprise at two such differing conclusions to what we all assume is based on the same info. It's like one group is coming up with the answer of '37' and the other group with '22' and both wondering how the other arrived at their conclusion. Not trying to fight with you or attack you, just very surprised/confused by your conclusion. WE/I just don't get it. I think it's all based on our differing perceptions of what we "think" has been presented as the evidence so far. Some seem to think Z was still following Martin and some that Z was headed back to or had returned to his truck. This seems to be a major point of disagreement. Sorry for long paragraph, typing on tablet which doesn't seem to work well on this forum for some reason.

To believe this murder is okay, you need to believe that Martin had no right to "stand his ground", and you need to believe that Zimmerman had no responsibility for his reckless actions that put him in the situation he was in. It was erroneously report that the cops investigated and didn't want to arrest Zimmerman until the haters got involved. It has since been proven that wasn't true; the lead detectives ask the DA for an arrest warrant after they interviewed Zimmer and the DA refused. Would the DA have refused if that had been a rich white kid? I don't know, but I know the Governor and the State Attorney General reviewed his decision and decided to bench him and send someone else in. Do I think race played in part in Zimmermans reckless conduct? I don't know. Did he think because the kid was black he didn't belong there? Would he have chased down the child of one of the local white families? I doubt it. I know that Zimmerman made a real bad choice in getting out of his truck and running that kid down. I believe that Martin was probably scared and for all we know may have seen the gun and was fighting for his life. Zimmerman caused that, and the fact that he caused a kid to attack him doesn't mean he gets a free pass to kill him. He set everything in motion; Martin was an innocent kid walking down the street minding his own business, and because Zimmerman intervened he is dead. Will justice be done at trial? I don't know, but lets get on with it. Will Zimmerman win a civil suit against NBC? I don't know but if he does Martins family will take every penny of it.

Tomorrow is the anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor. I only bring this up as I would like to honor my uncle "Thomas Lowery" who served on the submarine USS Sunfish during WWII and passed away last summer. My uncle Tommy whom raised me, was aboard the Sunfish that fateful day. When the Japanese attacked, the Sunfish (whom was entering the harbor) submerged in the shallow water and turned seaward in search of the Japanese fleet. The Sunfish engaged the Jap fleet and when running out of torpedoes, surfaced and engaged the enemy with a 50 cal machine gun and what my uncle called a 3" inch deck gun. A funny story he told me was when a Soviet Destroyer put up the Japanese flag and cruised right on into Tokyo Bay. The Sunfish went to Tokyo to attack the Jap fleet. Well, they encountered the russian cruiser flying the jap flag and sent two "fish" into the russian ship. Needless to say Ivan got pissed and wanted us to pay for the ship they lost. Such is war my friend!!! I found that story pretty funny! I miss my uncle dearly, but would like to honor ALL the veterans buried in the choppy waters of the South Pacific! Bless you all! Dave S

Bravo to this deputy for knowing and defending a citizen's constitutional right against a bureaucrat. [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-G8k44m3VE&feature=g-hist"]https://www.youtube....&feature=g-hist[/url] Disclaimer: I am not a fan of Alex Jones and I don't listen to his radio program.

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1354931543' post='8'] If you were on your back having your head beat on the concrete what would you do? Since so many seem to want to rehash all of this again, answer that question. [/quote] I wouldn't have put myself or a neighbors innocent kid in that situation. If I did, and started getting my azz kicked, Im pretty sure I wouldn't make things worse by killing someone.

I tried to buy a car at Toyota of Bristol. Everything went well until they told me I had to sign an Arbitration Agreement to buy the vehicle. Then it got ugly.

good grief (so many suggestions..). mail it to me, and I will de-prime and return the empty.

Come about 45 minutes south on 24 & visit the George Dickel distillery, another 20 minutes & there's Jack Daniel's. I [i]think[/i] you can get a tour of the Barrett factory?

If you were on your back having your head beat on the concrete what would you do? Since so many seem to want to rehash all of this again, answer that question.

It would appear that their government does not regulate how they conduct their business. What a concept!

I don't care how this situation turns out. The end results won't make me feel like a winner or loser. I will only maintain that a individual has a right to walk down any public street thru any neighborhood regardless of his/her appearance. If you think that individual is up to no good, then allow our paid professional law enforcement to intervene and make that determination.

[quote name='DaveS' timestamp='1354927216' post='856679'] Folks I can only judge based on known facts... A 17 year old was walking through a neighborhood he had full right to be in. Zman was in a truck and wanted to follow TM and 911 said "we don't need you to do that". Zman did it anyways. Some kind of way he got his *** handed to him, and shot/killed a 17 year old kid over it. I know, I know...all ya'll gonna say Zman shot TM in self defense. Well folks, maybe, just maybe..TM beat the P*** out of Zman in self defense....ever think of that? Zman will have his day in court and so will TM's parents. Good luck Zman! Dave S [/quote]Dave I think you are leaving out a couple of critical things that can have a big impact on who was really at fault in Martin's death... 1. Zimmerman did nothing illegal, as far as I can tell, in initially following Martin no matter what the 911 operator told him to do or not do and Zimmerman had as much right to "be there" as anyone else. 2. And this is where things seem most unclear, it appears that Zimmerman had stopped following Martin and was either headed back to his vehicle or even getting into his vehicle and it was then that Martin, according to some, began the physical altercation. Looking at it from the Martin's side...if Zimmerman really was "disengaging" then any "threat" Martin might have felt, legitimately or otherwise, was gone and he should also have disengaged just like any of us who feel threatened, pull our weapon and the bad guy runs away. We don't have the right to shoot at that point and Martin didn't have to right to start pounding on Zimmerman. Now, I'll admit...I'm going from memory here so if could be I have some of the "facts" wrong. Also, I think there will be a lot of facts to come out that we simply don't have. All I'm sure of right now is that I haven't seen enough verifiable facts to cause me to believe that Zimmerman is guilty of anything other than trying to protect his neighborhood.

[quote name='mcurrier' timestamp='1354918554' post='856636']...Prosecutors sometimes shoot higher than what they want to get to leave room for a lower ruling or a plea deal.[/quote] That's right...I seem to remember something about some Duke lacrosse players and an overzealous DA that I believe is not only not a DA anymore but not a licensed attorney anymore either.

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354909298' post='856589'] No evidence that we're aware of.[/quote] Hence the reason that in America, people are considered innocent until [i]proven[/i] guilty. [quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354909298' post='856589']But I'm not on the prosecution so I don't know what they have. Certainly they must have something good to have charged him with 2nd degree versus manslaughter. [/quote]Prosecutors sometimes shoot higher than what they want to get to leave room for a lower ruling or a plea deal.

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354905498' post='856554'] It was erroneously report that the cops investigated and didn't want to arrest Zimmerman until the haters got involved. It has since been proven that wasn't true; the lead detectives ask the DA for an arrest warrant after they interviewed Zimmer and the DA refused. Would the DA have refused if that had been a rich white kid? I don't know, but I know the Governor and the State Attorney General reviewed his decision and decided to bench him and send someone else in. [/quote] The DA did not have enough to charge GZ. After NBC released the doctored recording and the resulting public outcry and protests, they brought in anther special DA to file charges. Even if you think GZ is guilty, you must admit that there is no evidence there to support malice or premeditation needed for 2nd degree murder.

Wasn't someone talking about being a Monday morning quarterback over in another thread?

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1354899418' post='856505'] So... if you and I were on that jury, he would still walk . We all know Zimmerman screwed up by not cowering in his truck. Fact is though, he had as much right to be there as Martin. Who initiated violent action, and was Z in fear for his life? It's really that simple.[/quote] I don't think it is that simple though. Like I said, if this was about self defense alone his trial would last a day and he would be a free man. I dont disagree at all that he was in fear for his life. There is more to this story than that, and there will most certainly be more evidence when this goes to trial.

^^^Was the reliable source ESPN? Cause its already been all over their website all morning.

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1354897841' post='856488'] Z was only arrested and charged after a huge media frenzy. That wouldn't have happened if the thug wasn't a 12 year old black kid that looked like Obama's son.[/quote] Yes, but that is to assume that one had to do with the other. Casey Anthony was also arrested and charged after a huge media frenzy. So was OJ Simpson. I don't believe that the media was the deciding factor there. Keep in mind that both those individuals were found not guilty even though they most likely were, so I wouldn't worry about Z not getting a fair trial. If the evidence doesn't support it he will go free. If it does he will go to jail. I'm not excusing all the morons involved here such as NBC. I don't believe there are any redeeming characters in this situation. But I'm not allowing the racist lefties involved here cloud my judgement one way or the other. Just because the racist vulture media committed an atrocity here, that doesn't mean the man is innocent.

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354896529' post='856463'] , I believe that the "Z" character would be on trial for manslaughter. [/quote] Z was only arrested and charged after a huge media frenzy. That wouldn't have happened if the thug wasn't a 12 year old black kid that looked like Obama's son.

[quote name='mikegideon' timestamp='1354896136' post='856458'] Correct. He's on trial because of a media circus, race baiting bad actors, and a liberal sh#t hissy. Since the election, I'm not counting on any sane outcome on ANY issue. With that said, based on the evidence that's been released so far, he would walk if I was on the jury.[/quote] I think that if this was a matter of self defense the case would never make it to trial, and if it did, the defense could easily make the argument that Z's life was threatened and he acted accordingly. However, this case is going to be about the events leading up to the alteration and who initiated it. Removing race and all that crap, if this same incident occurred here in TN, and it was two white guys who acted just the same as Z and Martin, I believe that the "Z" character would be on trial for manslaughter.

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1354895279' post='856443'] I don't believe the level of force he used to defend himself is the reason he is on trial. [/quote] Correct. He's on trial because of a media circus, race baiting bad actors, and a liberal sh#t hissy. Since the election, I'm not counting on any sane outcome on ANY issue. With that said, based on the evidence that's been released so far, he would walk if I was on the jury.

i miss strel, that guys posts were pure win

[quote name='Hershmeister' timestamp='1354893472' post='856425'] You will be sued civilly and it will cost you - even if you prevail in the end [/quote]Yeah...I can be sued...you can be sued...anyone can be sued...if I worried about all the ways I could be sued I'd be afraid to leave my house (and that wouldn't protect me). What I was trying to clarify was whether loaning a friend a firearm for a while violated any federal or state laws and it doesn't look to me as if it does and if I someday get sued then I'll handle that when it happens.

[quote name='jwinter' timestamp='1354889936' post='856402'] If the comment was directed at me [/quote] It wasn't, and I should have used different wording. I just used it in my post to state the obvious; we are all Monday morning quaterbacking since none of us were there. I don't believe a lot of what I read on this forum and elsewhere. A lot of the time, you do not get the whole story. When I comment on some of these threads, I treat them as an exercise in the hypothetical. I assume the OP is telling me the whole story, and I base my comments on what was written. It is all in good fun. If I viewed these stories like I do everything in real life, the only thing I would ever be able to say is, "I can't comment since I don't know if I have all the facts."

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1354840583' post='856131'] I think George Zimmerman may well be a racist and predatory villain, and I didn’t hear the edited version. Either this clown doesn’t listen to his attorneys, or he has the dumbest attorney’s in history. [/quote] For all we know, you may be one too. See how stupid that is?

You and many people jump to assumptions about this situation. None of us where there except the OP and none of us know what the circumstances where in this interaction at all that is a fact. The Monday morning quarterback comment is for people who want to tell others how do their job after the fact. If you can do it better then get hired and do it. Just having a HCP doesn't make you a saint or even a good person believe me I've seen some people who should be in prison and gang members with a HCP. While at the same time I've known several good people and even family members that are HCP holders. I even have one myself. If you are disarmed and don't believe there was a justification then complain. But don't jump to conclusions about someone else's situation unless you where there. Now in my experience I have never disarmed a legally armed HCP holder. I give them credit due to my experience and interactions with the many I have encoutered. I don't want to disarm them just like I wouldn't want to be disarmed. But if in a situation I have articulable facts to explain I may have been in reasonable fear to disarm the person during our encounter it will be done. Hopefully that never has to happen but if it does I will do what I am legally allowed to do to ensure the safety of myself and the other person and conduct the business at hand. Now I don't assume automatically HCP holders are threats due to that fact alone they are treated like anyone else I encounter and will continue to do so unless they make the situation change.

[quote name='timcar86' timestamp='1354878061' post='856336']Press Check. Do it every time you holster.[/quote] This! I check every morning regardless of how long it's been since I actually unloaded it.

Yep, one of my Facebook friends shared this with me yesterday as well. My reply was Lets see, Our founding Fathers understood. "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day , events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the [b]rifle and pistol[/b] are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." George Washington First President of the United States

So you're suggesting that having a masters degree in art studies with a speciality in oil canvas between 1453-1455 isn't as useful as someone with 10 years of machining experience?

If I ever start an alternative rock band I'm calling it "Boning Leather".

I hope he gets so much money they think twice about pulling that stunt again.

It didn't rise from Oct. to Nov., it never went down. That 7.4% is a bogus number. For the past 48 months it has been steady, well... steadily rising. But then! October. The month before the [i]election[/i], it miraculously goes down (just to help someone who's name begins with 0), then it goes back up??? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Many of you may not know this, but believe me... some will. A soldier(or veteran) who runs his mouth telling everyone who will listen... just how smart they are, how bad ass they are, how many they've killed, how rough of a time they had,or how great they are... are total BS!! I know this for a fact. The ones who are the "real deal" don't say a word... because they don't have to. They want to forget... but can't.

At some point in a guy's life... it comes down to this. Four guys have been going to the same fishing trip for many years. Two days before the group is to leave, Ron's wife puts her foot down and tells him he isn't going. Ron's mates are very upset that he can't go, but what can they do. Two days later the three get to the camping site only to find Ron sitting there with a tent set up,firewood gathered, and dinner cooking on the fire. 　 "Dang Ron, how long you been here, and how did you talk your missus into letting you go?" 　 "Well, I've been here since yesterday evening. I was sitting in my chair and my wife came up behind me and put her hands over my eyes and said, "Guess who?" I pulled her hands off, and she was wearing a brand new see through nightie. She took my hand and pulled me to our bedroom. 　 The room had candles and rose petals all over. On the bed she had handcuffs, and ropes! She told me to tie and cuff her to the bed, and I did. And then she said, "Do whatever you want." So, Here I am. Who wants a beer? __________________

[img]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s480x480/74195_10200146042075782_1614365776_n.jpg[/img]

You could also substitute a Kentucky Long Rifle for the men's part and a SBR for the women's part.

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354771453' post='855616']As I said before, the man who is gonna shoot you at a traffic stop isn't gonna show you his hcp, and let you take his weapon. [/quote] [quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354771453' post='855616'] To bad [u][b]most officers [/b][/u]will never have to answer for their reasons for doing most of what they do. I may seem jaded or upset, but I've seen one to many police officers [u][b]flip on lights to run the red[/b][/u], speed to nowhere in the cruiser that they drive home on the tax payers dime, and basically abuse the power given to them by the citzen. This is not meant as a blanket statement and I have the utmost respect for those honest LEO's who don't take an oppurtunity to step on your toes when they get the chance. But I have the utmost contempt for those that do things because they can, not because they should. And I will not support officers who do such things, including disarming an honest citzen who has done nothing wrong, [u][i][b]just so the officer can get a warm and fuzzy[/b][/i][/u]. [/quote] This is probably a waste of time, but here is my two cents anyway. How do you know what a person is going to do on a traffic stop? Because I’ve done thousands of them and I don’t know. Go work the streets with a cop and let us know if you think their discretion should be taken away. I had a couple come in and make a complaint on me because I turned on my overheads, blew a light, shut them off and continued on normally. They called me in and had me explain to them why I did it and played them back the communications tape. They were embarrassed at the results and apologized for making accusations. Unfortunately you don’t always know what’s causing what you see. You see it and assume the worst; others (like me) see it and give the cops the benefit of the doubt. I openly support my local Police Officers, Troopers, and Deputies and appreciate the job they do. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/patriot.gif[/img]

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1354766111' post='855584']In an interview, Fat Phil said that he would take the position if they offered [/quote] Darren Rovell sports buisness reporter for ESPN, says Hart should hire Phil for a 1 yr deal and wait for more coaching free agents. I personally think UTs collective head would explode if that happened. He also says Dave Harts problem is he never fired or hired a coach in 12 yrs at Fl State. Not sure I agree with that either. We went hard at Charlie Strong, he got 4 mil to stay put. We can't pay an unproven coach Saban money.

[quote name='Spots' timestamp='1354770238' post='855606'] Sounds like he was professinal. That said,[b] he has no reason, nor right[/b] to disarm anyone who is in legal possession of a handgun with an HCP. [/quote] TN law gives him the right, and the reason is his call. - OS

I own a 23 and a 27. I'm not a really big guy and I didn't carry the 23 very much at all the first few years that I had it, matter of fact I didn't like carrying it and that is why I bought the 27. A good holster and belt solved that problem. I open carry at work in the summer, I'm standing and sitting about 50/50 and moving around quite a bit. The 23 is comfortable for me to carry all day. The 27 I forget is even there. I can comfortably conceal the 23 in public this time of year under a light jacket. In the summer I'll just tuck it under my Tshirt if I'm going into a store or something, a close look would get me made but most folks probably never notice.

[quote name='cruisemissile' timestamp='1352786869' post='844709'] I also have a box of the original black talons and was told by a LEO that they are illegal to carry. He is a retired police chief from Knoxville TN. [/quote] And he is clueless. Dolomite