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This week many of us are bound to be traveling for the holiday and spending time with family and friends. I wanted to go ahead and wish everyone here a very [b]Happy Thanksgiving[/b] and safe travels! For those of you who are currently off of American soil, serving our country, please be safe and enjoy the holiday as best you can knowing that we're thinking of you back here in the States. I realize that for the majority of us here on TGO, the recent election did not go exactly as we had hoped it would and we are gravely concerned about the future of our nation. There are some here who are without a job, and we likely all know someone who has either lost their employment or otherwise taken a hit because of the economy. Several of us this year have lost loved ones or are presently watching someone close to us writing what may be the final pages of their life's story. But despite all of those bad things, I take comfort in knowing that we have much still to be thankful for. If for no other reason than simply the fact that we still live as free men and women in what Alexis de Tocqueville referred to as this Great Experiment. Enjoy the week ahead!

Patriotism has nothing to do with political affiliation. Serving your country, recognizing the rights of others and obeying the law show patriotism. No, I am not a liberal and no I am not a Democrat. I am a thirty year retired USMC MGySgt, a Vietnam War veteran (4 tours "in country") and was a Republican for over forty years. I am now an Independent as I will not wear a brown shirt and red armband and worship a Republican King and his court, nor will I allow a Socialist Democratic Party to dictate to me how to live. We are right now at the same point Germany was in 1934: only two choices and both of them are bad.I don't Identify with either party, I identify as being an American, and I have earned the right to call myself that by service to my nation, not by party affiliation. The store owner had the right to do what he did but he would never get my business.He was a good Republican but a lousy American.

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1353370773' post='848479'] keep this subject grounded in reality versus theory.[/quote] You can't.

http://shirt.woot.com/offers/online-debate-team

As to the pelvis....It MAY work ..it MAY not. I had a girlfriend who was in a car wreck. The car went off the interstate and flipped end over end . Her pelvis was broken in THREE places..... yet she crawled 50 yards back to the road to flag down help....so if a 17 year old girl was able to do that I don't hold out much hope for a pelvic shot to turn off the bad guy's trigger finger. If pain does not stop them, then we are back to needing to turn off the lights....so why not just skip straight to shutting off the power? As to rounds hitting them in the " credit card" or the "ocular-nasal triangle" YES those are all that will for sure get into the cranial vault and hit the brain....Both Platte and Maddox had pistol bullets recovered from under their scalp that did not penetrate their skulls in the Miami FBI shootout in 1986. The skull IS very hard and rounds need to be directed into the eye orbit and nose to reliably hit the brain.... But....... does anyone really think that a bullet through the teeth or a bullet in the jaw or square in the forehead does not hurt and does not have some kind of negative effect on their ability to do damage to us? And why do we always seem to assume that we will just fire ONE round and stop? The first 1 might not hit him in the eye, but the follow up shots will be doing damage too.... Also consider this....what follows the bullet? SOUND, hot gas and burning powder. At less than 3 yards that is like having a cherry bomb go off at arms length. If nothing else it is very likely to get them to close their eyes and flinch. Do we think that will make it easier or harder for them to continue their assault? And again....we keep shooting until they quit doing what made us shoot them to begin with . There is no "shoot 2 and assess" it is "keep shooting until they are no longer able to hurt you. "

[quote name='S&WForty' timestamp='1353358426' post='848337'] That sure is a short sighted statement. Not everyone can hop from job to job especially in this economy. I've had to endure that same line in the Parking Lot Bill thread if someone works for a company that bans firearms from employees' cars. Perhaps someone can drive to work and home unarmed and pray for the best. I guess that same person working on Thanksgiving should pray that their family doesn't miss them. [/quote] Everything comes at a sacrifice. Want to feed the family? Then you might have to work on Thanksgiving. Don't like it? Then work somewhere else or don't work at all. Sorry, I've missed several Thanksgivings and Christmases while deployed to war along with hundreds of thousands of other Sevicemembers that have endured the same. I never expected pity or appreciation, so I have a hard time empathizing with a person that can just go find another job.

Meh. If your employer requires you to work in Thanksgiving, find a different job. I agree that family is important, and Thanksgiving serves as a day for the family to get together, but I've missed birthdays and every holiday there is when I served in the military. It sucked, but it was the profession I chose and I knew that it came with sacrifices such as that.

Let's define the problem a little better..... Is the target a suspect held at gunpoint 6 yards away who suddenly produces a weapon? Or is it an aggressive panhandler who had maneuvered to within 2 arms length and then suddenly produced a weapon? Or is it an active shooter who is 30 yards away? Or is it someone doing their best Trayvon Martin impersonation who has mounted you and working the ground and pound trying to beat you to death? You see the answer largely depends on the situation. If he is 30 yards away then COM is all you are likely hit ....no matter how good a shot you are . If he is farther than 5 yards then the head is not an easy shot unless he is not mobile. At less than 4 yards (and closing on you) then head shots are A LOT easier than most people realize. Can you hit a volleyball at 3 yards ? How about 2 yards? If we plug it into actual close range assaults the head shots get easier...IF that is what you have trained to do and trained to do it against live opponents while you are semi adrenalyzed. And if you understand the OODA concept, action vs reaction, and how to exploit that to your advantage it is easy. How about in touching distance? With him on top of you ? Once you have grabbed his left arm and pulled across to your left side(unbalancing and dropping him onto his face and chest onto the ground) and scooted your hips (to your right) out from under him? Now you just draw and lay the muzzle on the back of his left shoulder and fire a shot from 4 inches from his head. Can you make THAT shot? I would hope so. So we see that depending on the distance and depending on your training and depending on your skill as a shooter and your ability to shift gears from the defensive to the offensive you can in fact make head shots IF you try to. Would I recommend it for the typical CCW license holder? No. But there are people out there carrying guns in public that have FAR and AWAY more skill than the typical CW holder and FAR and AWAY more skill than the typical police officer. For THOSE people? They can make those shots. You just have to make a real serious assessment of your skill level and decide accordingly. And that decision does not need to be made for the first time in the middle of the situation when it is real....... As for me, in MOST situations the body shots are plan A. But realizing pistols are notoriously weak stoppers plan A is actually a burst of 3 to 5 to the body...and then IMMEDIATELY stage for the headshot. If the head is still there...then take the shot. If it is not...then he fell down....and we simply do not take the shot. Pretty simple. I look at the body shots like a flurry of punches to the body setting them up for a knockout blow.....if they fall from the body blows then we don't throw the hook.... The body shots at 3 yards (assuming you understand grip and follow through) are fired like a burst from a submachine gun. Due to the close proximity of the target these can be fired at warp speed and still get tightly grouped high COM hits. These are more times than not going to be LIKELY to do what needs to be done.....but I do not EXPECT them to. I EXPECT to then have to take the head shot. And since I am EXPECTING it, I am already looking for a sight picture and getting ready to take the head shot once the last shot of the body burst is fired. Not standing and gawking wondering why it didn't work and what to do next. Training fills in those empty pages in your mental rolodex so you know what to do next and don't hesitate or freeze. But there are situations where head shot might be plan A. If the BG is rapidly closing with a contact weapon or if he is reaching for a weapon and at 2 arms length distance then the head may well be plan A. but for MOST situations outside 2 arms length then the body is still plan A.

[quote name='JayC' timestamp='1353337356' post='848138'] ....I've lost a lot of respect for certain of members of this forum in this thread, who have repeatedly advocated smaller government, fewer firearm laws to get us closer to our God given rights, but are happy to throw those principles away to get the state to pass a law because it saves them from making some hard choices.[/quote] Agree that ideally, best legislation is to repeal ... 1. statute that going armed is a crime 2. statute which makes carrying past a sign a criminal charge Second best to 1. is to extend exception for going armed to vehicle, for everyone, since it is already covered under "castle law" part of self defense statutes ....and let chips fall where they may regarding public facilities and their employees. Since this is still a faraway pipe dream, most agree we must grab the fruit that can be picked at the time. Btw, this law ain't gonna affect me one way or the other, I'm just for expanding gun rights any way possible, including yes, even adding a few more words to TCA, since it's more feasible to do that than take any away right now. - OS

The first option should be center mass. Its the best and largest target. If the threat fails to stop, your next target is the pelvic region. Splitting the pelvic girdle will take away the threat's mobility and there are several large arteries in that area. If the threat still doesn't stop, your last option is the head. And when we're talking about the head we're really talking about an upside down triangle that goes from the eyes to the nose. That's it. The forehead is very hard and has been know to deflect bullets because of the slope. From the cheekbones down is also a poor choice because there are no vital targets in that area. So to sum up: 4 to 6 center mass, 4 to 6 pelvis and if you don't get compliance after that, you have to make a precise shot to the eyes/nose area. This all was from the class I took from Tiger McKee.

[quote name='DaddyO' timestamp='1353102600' post='846826'] I can even see them passing a law that says if you currently have a 401K, then you have to choose... either your 401K or government retirement (including Social Security), but not both. Bastards. [/quote] Just a decade or two ago, someone who actually saved for their own retirement and ran their financial life responsibly would have been held up as an example of how to life. Now, if you have any money at all you are part of the "evil rich" and you deserve to be punished.

Hey like the title says I'm new to reloading so new I don't have a loader yet, I am planing on getting a dillon loader for Xmas no I'm sorry Christmas (lets put Christ back in Christmas) What is a good bullet, and powder for a reload. I am planning on getting the Dillon Square B deal so if I go to other calibers I can do it rather easily. I have checked all kinds of threads on here and on line to find the best bulk Bullets and powder but I want to know what you folks do. I will use them for target range mostly but if the #### hits the fan I want to have thousands of loads to have on hand. I will probably end up with a 45 also so what ever powder I get I want to be able to load them also. If I go to reload ak47 or AR15 is the powder the same as the pistol round etc. Thanks FlyBoy

With a new Glock 19 Gen 4, electronic muffs, some ammo, Comp-tac holster and mag pouch. Took a lot of looking and deciding. In the end, the Glock fit my hand the best, the trigger is decent, the price was right, and it was available. Off to the range tomorrow to give it a wringing out.

This buck dressed at 107 pounds and came down with a shot of about 10 yards. Hand loaded 230 grain .45 acp XTP. Bullet passed through and lodged in the hide on the off side. Life is good! [img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f397/dsayre/004-1.jpg[/img] He had 3 1/2 inch spikes growing downward on his head. Craziest thing I've ever seen! [img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f397/dsayre/003-1.jpg[/img] Dave S

[quote name='sigbrown1297' timestamp='1353371218' post='848484'] Looking for a processor near Nashville for WHEN get my deer I would like to do some summer sausage, and jerky as well. Much appreciated. [/quote] Cant help you with the processor but I just want to point out that attitude has a lot to do with having a successful deer hunt! When you get discouraged, your hunts become miserable, you get tired, you fall asleep, and you leave your stand early. Maintain a positive attitude and you will find yourself seeing a lot more deer. I get my deer processed at Jeff Kings off Highway 72 in Mississippi. Prices are like $55 for a whole deer. They do everything but link sausage. Happens to be one of the best and he is on my way to my land.

[quote name='TGO David' timestamp='1353363277' post='848409'] I don't have a budget. I'll spend whatever it takes to build a good one [/quote] change user name to TGO David Trump

[quote name='Cruel Hand Luke' timestamp='1353362245' post='848395']TMF, no one is saying (at least they shouldn't be) that shooting people in the pelvis NEVER works. Just like no one is saying shooting in the head ALWAYS works. I have friend whose dad shot a guy in the leg and the guy stopped. But then you have guys like my great grandfather who killed two guys after BOTH of them had shot him in the torso. Neither one hit anything vital...and he hit both the other guys multiple times in the chest and they died on the spot. You just don't know how someone will react to being hit in a non vital area.Sometimes they crumple and sometimes not.... Most people shot in the heart, spine or brain react the same.... [/quote] I agree with what you're saying, but I'm just trying to keep this subject grounded in reality versus theory. It is not realistic to think you'll be able to engage a small area of a person's face in a situation like this, no matter how much you train. I'm saying this having done more failure drills than I could count with the collective fingers and toes of all the people on this board. I still do them. But I would never trick myself into thinking that I would choose that as a primary target, especially when I know I can get 5 shots off faster into one sight picture than two to the chest and one to the head. The split second it takes to make the transition to a different sight picture isn't worth it to me, especially when I know I might not land the shot on a moving nugget. If I can't finish it with 5 shots to the body in quick succession, than I have landed into the remotest of remote situations, made even more remote by the assailant not responding to fear or pain. So if I ever get attacked by 7 ft tall tweeker who is high on PCP and wearing body armor I might be in trouble. Otherwise, my experience tells me that my course of action is most likely to result in a more positive outcome with out assuming more risk. But I'm a "play the averages" sorta guy.

It's their company and they can do with it what they will - well at least they should be able to.....

Lets see where this goes: I sometimes see things differently than most, just to have a different point of view, maybe to stir it up. For one, I agree its a shame that working retailers and working food servers must work on a beloved holiday, I sympathize with those. However, I am not so sure its the greedy companies to blame, but the stock holders who are actually to blame. We stock holders, sometimes called 401K holders of mutal funds, demand and expect a certain rate of return in order for us to have a comfortable lifestyle. We demand these public traded companies not only turn an expected profit, but we want the shares of stock to rise in value. We stock/mutal funds holders do not care how they do it, as long as it is legal. So my argument, who is to blame, the retailers, or us!

[quote name='zgunbear' timestamp='1353342082' post='848175'] I agree it has to be people you can trust. I live in Spring Hill and would need people in this area. I doubt we could stay here so my wife and I would need a place to bug out to. [/quote] I am guessing that you are not the only TGO'er who might be forced to relocate if the S ever H the F. Spring Hill is up there by Nashville correct? Anyway you'd probably want to find a place that is no further than an hours drive, that way you can limit the amount of time you & your family spent on the roads, where I believe folks will be most vunerable. Also limiting your distance to an hours drive or less you could still hike that distance on foot in a couple of days time if you were forced too. Anyway Zgunbear you might want to include some more details in your application so to speak, to join a reciprocal agreement, things like your &/or your family member's skill sets or how many folks you could shelter if the need arose, stuff like that. You might also want to include things like any known medical issues that your potential hosts might need to be aware of, but serious stuff only like a heart condition or cancer or that condition where your blood doesn't clot, or say if one of your kids had a severe allergy to something, etc. While it is a shame it is also a reality that some folks might only be willing to shelter you & your family if there is something in it for them, a promise of some sort of payment or something, personally I would recommend avoiding making any agreements with those sorts of people. The folks who would take advantage of other people during a major life/death crisis will keep taking advantage of you & everyone else that they can, as it is obviously in their nature to do so. I would like to see this sort of thing kept as every average day folks freely banding together in order to survive whatever ####storm comes our way, yes it does mean that there will be more mouths to feed, but there will also be more hands to do the work, more eyes to keep watch & more guns to fend off bandits. I think that the potential pros are worth the risk of the potential cons.

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1353356558' post='848318']Meh. If your employer requires you to work in Thanksgiving, find a different job.[/quote] That sure is a short sighted statement. Not everyone can hop from job to job especially in this economy. I've had to endure that same line in the Parking Lot Bill thread if someone works for a company that bans firearms from employees' cars. Perhaps someone can drive to work and home unarmed and pray for the best. I guess that same person working on Thanksgiving should pray that their family doesn't miss them.

Like this... [img]http://patrickleanne.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/i-fRZSPjk/0/L/Christmas_for_engineers-L.jpg[/img]

Betty Boop (kidding) I like Rusty's suggestion. Lot's of folks are using the x's on either side now with most of the normal usernames taken. You can even add extra x's on either side if need be. I am pretty proud of mine. H1GHSCOR3 if anyone wants to add me. Pretty in to Black ops 2 now.

But I saw it on the internet [img]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/603913_489513107737612_1081253837_n.jpg[/img]

I don't dislike the holiday season but I do get tired of having, "It's Christmas and if you don't spend more than you can possibly afford then you are a Grinch and an unAmerican, unpatriotic Scrooge who makes the baby Jesus cry," shoved down my throat. I hate hearing Christmas music in stores before Thanksgiving. Let's face it, with the rare exception of a few, choice selections from some of the older tunes, most Christmas music sucks anyhow - and when 'contemporary' singers like Celine Dion, etc. attack them and try to add their own 'style' to them those songs suck even worse. I certainly don't want to hear it in every store I go into for two months even apart from it 'wearing out' the season. Oh, and yeah, I worked retail for years - first at a grocery store and then at a shop at East Town Mall. I feel for you guys who work retail, now as it truly does make one despise the holiday season.

[quote name='GKar' timestamp='1353306513' post='848049'] Perhaps the best ending to this lovely discourse was alluded to earlier: if a "parking lot" bill is introduced into the next legislative session, and it contains proposals that are objectionable to some, then those that are so adamantly convinced that such is a bad bill should expend the same amount of energy that's been exhausted within this and similar threads over the last year into efforts directed at the legislators...you know, those people that can actually DO (or not do) something about it. In the meantime, those who believe it is a step in the right direction can continue to do the same...and save a hell of a lot of bandwidth. [/quote] People here wonder why we can't get this bill passed.... The TFA and NRA went to town on legislators who don't want to see this bill passed... There are very [b]valid conservative[/b] reasons to not support this bill. We as 2nd amendment advocates should be pushing the legislature to pass laws that recognize our God given rights for self defense, and a smaller government (at all levels government needs to get much smaller). Not pass legislation that makes the government bigger, and interferes with God given property rights. [b]The 'problem' this bill attempts to solve doesn't exist[/b], nobody is being forced to work at, or do business with a posted company in this state. HCP permit holders willingly choose to enter into agreements with these businesses, and tomorrow could choose to not enter into those agreements with those businesses. Therefore the law in question is nothing but an expansion of government, and further restricts private property rights. IMHO, people who support this bill have lost their way on the fundamentals of conservative principles, they want to government to give them a privilege over the rights of property owners to store a firearm in their vehicle, instead of making the hard choice to not do business with said companies. That violates everything I've been taught about conservative principles of less government, and allowing the market solve problems. I'm not saying that the legislator won't pass this bill, I'm also not saying that a court would find it unconstitutional... The legislature passes all sorts of bad bills on a regular basis that violate natural rights of the citizens of our state... Courts often IMHO get it wrong and trash God given rights... I suspect in this case they would continue to do so... Doesn't mean because you can, you should... I for one am not willing to toss aside my core principles of smaller, limited government... belief in true God given rights of men... because some refuse to make hard choices in their own daily lives. I've lost a lot of respect for certain of members of this forum in this thread, who have repeatedly advocated smaller government, fewer firearm laws to get us closer to our God given rights, but are happy to throw those principles away to get the state to pass a law because it saves them from making some hard choices.

If i were Gruden i wouldnt leave my Monday Night football gig to work harder and look after a bunch of kids. He has it made where he is.

I would say a 20 gauge would be perfect.

I guess I'll see 'bout contacting Winchester, just to see if they respond or anything. - OS

I've been away from this soap opera for a week or so. Did I miss anything? No? Didn't think so. Anyone convince anyone about anything? No? Didn't think so.

Wow, I feel sorry for some of you. Once my neighbor asked me to come over and take care of his pool, drink beer and use his pool while he was on vacation. It was a real PITA but someone had to do it!

[i]I believe in Center of Mass and as many rounds as it takes to stop the threat. [/i]

As a FL fan it saddens me to see him be fired.

[quote name='dralarms' timestamp='1353247601' post='847554'] Good except for the fact of the warning, now he will get the chance to do it again. [/quote] Yeah, there's that. But there's also that the gun carrier was spared most any type of legal or psychological repercussion. - OS

[quote name='Garufa' timestamp='1353265732' post='847712']If the nutcase purchased the knife at the store how did he get it out of the fiendish packaging to commence his rampage?[/quote] Must have had either another knife or a eight year old accomplice.

Heres a heart warming neighbor story from yesterday. Lawn company cuts her grass, blows a four foot pile of leaves from her yard into mine. (I have no trees.) Yes, I blow them back. She comes out and yells at me, " I paid to have those blow there!) Me> " What?!" I feel your pain.

My experience tells me you will draw and fire without thinking about your equipment and you will fire where and how you have trained; chances are you will not have time to do anything else. My training was firing into center body mass without using sights. If you think you will have time to get a sight picture or make a head shot; train that way. If I were a “Shot placement guy” I would be dead.

[quote name='Mike.357' timestamp='1353208423' post='847421'] Good on your for walking out. The dealer must have a helluva business going if they can afford to let cash deals walk away. [/quote] Misconception here about cash deals being preferred car deal. As a F and I guy it went against my numbers on doing a cash deal. I made money and often more on the back end of a deal off the buy rate. Always make a dealer think you are financing the car until the very last minute. I would just about give away a car for a lose on the front end because I knew I could make it up on the back end. I once sold a Ford Contour for a 2500 loss but actually made 2500 on the rate/credit life/gap and extended warranty. I wouldn't have discounted the car if I thought the buyer was going to write me a check.

He showed her his, she showed him hers. Sounds like neither liked what they saw.

[quote name='strickj' timestamp='1353106091' post='846856'] What's the logic behind removing open carrying in lieu of carrying a knife? [/quote] Well, carrying a concealed weapon (be it a knife, stick, gun, blackjack or whatever) is not going to cause the manager of the waffle house I am eating in to ask me to leave like the gentleman sitting next to me was when another customer complained about the XD strapped to his side. Although the waffle house was not posted the manager still had the right to deny him service after the complaint was made. I on the other hand was able to finish my eggs in peace while still having my S&W Bodyguard covered by my outer shirt. My question to you would be what is the point in letting people know you have a weapon? I carry not because I feel the need to excersise my 2A right, I carry to protect my family and, God forbid, I ever have to use a gun for defense, I prefer the BG hear it before he sees it. Now my intent was not to deny others open carry, for me it is not that big a deal. For others it seems to be. Thats fine, lets rephrase the question. What are the opinions of modifying the current HCP law to something like a WCP (weapons carry permit) law?

So today at lunch my dad and I went to the local gun store to look at Mosins and pocket knives - you know, guy time? - and he dropped this into my hand on the way back to work: [center][img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8139611/Knife2.jpg[/img][/center] It was my Uncle's knife when he was in the Army in the 70's. When he got home, he gave the knife to my Grandfather to use. Dad found it when he was up there settling my Grandmother's estate. Dad gave it to me to carry, told me to think of my Uncle and Grandfather whenever I use it. But I don't know that I will. Too much family history already in this old knife. I'd be devastated if I lost it. It'll go to my son one day, when he's old enough to appreciate what it is. It's not damascus or benchmade or custom. But I really do think this is my new favorite knife, and I wanted to show it off.

Happy Happy

I can even see them passing a law that says if you currently have a 401K, then you have to choose... either your 401K or government retirement (including Social Security), but not both. Bastards.

Congrats on the choice. But be warned....Glocks multiply in the night. You may only have one now, but soon there will be more. I think Glocks are asexual.

Congrats! The older I get the more I just want to associate with my dogs. Mg wife is dying for another puppy, enjoy the puppy age and take pictures while you can!

It's the wrong move... We should be pushing for removing government land and buildings from being posted under 1359. Not trying to overrule the rights of private citizens to control their own land.

[quote name='Sour Kraut' timestamp='1353032184' post='846311'] ..humans are assholes.. [/quote] No truer words have ever been spoken!

One in the chamber, hammer down, no safety. My SIG & most of my Berettas are DA/SA & are decocker only models & that what I prefer.

I don't consider safeties as a necessary feature for responsible gun owners. For the types of people that look down barrels and finger twirl with their drunken buddies, absolutely. The only pistol I have with a safety is my 1911, but that is required due to the SA design. DA pistols and revolvers don't need safeties.

I gotta call BS on this whole story. I saw Crocodile Dundee, he didn't get arrested...and that was a real knife.