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"Inaccurately attributed quotes are the bane of the internet" - Abraham Lincoln http://www.snopes.co.../prosperity.asp Or, if you prefer: http://bit.ly/NhhMcD

Whenever you have a situation like the Miami shootout or the Bank of America shootout; you will have controversy. In both cases the bad guys had superior fire power and were playing offense not defense (state of mind). Had the LAPD had .308 rifles the shootout would have been much shorter, had they had 50 Cal Barrett’s it would have been over in two rounds; but they didn’t. Why would anyone think that THP buying .357 Sigs means they are a better round? There are Police agency’s using 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, and .357SIG. “Someone†thought all of those rounds would be the best for the application they have; that doesn’t mean they were right. Penetration? I want my handguns round expelling all of its energy in the body; not passing through it. Since I can’t fit 15 rounds of .45ACP or .357Mag in a duty size gun; my choice would be .40S&W. If I want barrier penetration I would pull my .308 AR out of the rifle rack in the squad and use it; that’s barrier penetration. If 5 gang bangin’ thugs open fire on you on the street with .380’s; you are going to die on the street full of .380 holes regardless of what caliber gun you are carrying. Superior firepower. You can talk all you want about shot placement but in many circumstances you would never get the chance or have the time to place an exact shot. Everything is application driven…. Nothing has changed. You are picking the gun and the round that someday may be called upon to save your life or the life of a family member. It is your responsibility to make the right decision; because the rest of us are only going to read about the aftermath.

That just isn’t true. S&W owns the revolver market and has for decades; they are the best there is. I’ve been shooting and carrying S&W (and other) revolvers for 40 years. The K-frames have been handling a steady diet of full house 357 mags for years. You just need to shoot 158 instead of the 125 or less grain. There is 30 years of information out there as to why, but if you see someone posting the frames couldn’t handle the stresses; they are clueless. The beefed up L-frames came out, not because the frames couldn’t handle it, but as a marketing tool against the Python and Ruger’s for those that wanted something heavier, but not as big as the N-frame. Ruger’s are great guns. Back in day when the cops were carrying revolvers they were cheaper to buy. Today they cost almost as much as a Smith & Wesson. Colt Pythons are great guns if you can find one at a reasonable price. I had three of them years ago that I tried to shoot in competition, but just couldn’t shoot them as accurately as my S&W’s (It was me not the guns). Wish I had them today. $$ S&W, Ruger, and Colt revolvers; buy them right and they will appreciate more than many 401K's, plus you get to play with them. You just have to be educated about what you are buying. Just my opinions.

Mitt ain't a RINO. He's right in the middle of mainstream GOP reality. Matter of fact, most all the folks accused of being RINOs, aren't. At one time, sure, but not now -- they're right in the party bell curve norm. Anything right of them is the fringe party element. Which as I predicted is being absorbed and diluted. It's a reflection of the actual voting citizenry. Mitt is about as conservative a prez that will have a chance to be elected for some time, maybe ever -- until we have undergone the inevitable society wide Big Pain. - OS

Absolutely! I'm sorry, it's not fun to say it, but "Made in America" means nothing. Actually, It's starting to mean "garbage" or "Made by ignorant lazy workers who are only here for a 40 Hr paycheck and could care less." When asked why I drive a Toyota and wouldn't buy anything BUT a Toyota, Honda or Nissan I'm quick to say, "I'm tired of working on JUNK." I bought a Toyota so I could have a vehicle I DON'T have to work on all the time. Used to be the big three was GM, Ford and Chrysler. Now the big three are Honda Nissan and Toyota. There's a reason that's true. Patriotism and pride is all fine and good but people are tired of buying crap.

Cause DHS bought all the .40 ammo up

I would love that but, there is noway anyone but Romney can get enough votes to beat Obama. It is a sad truth but every independant that has run falls short by ALOT. Ross Perot came the closest and he still did not get half the popular votes it would take to win and still got 0 electoral college votes, which are what actually matter. We have to start electing good local officials first and make our way up. As long as the electoral college is in effect it will alway be a red and blue issue. I applaude you AV for finding a good candidate to stand by but if we all vote that way we will fall together. I hate that the power has really been taken away from the people. Any other year you and I would be on the same page but this is the make or break election for our nation. Nothing I have read about Romney says he wants to take rights away, but Obama has always been open about his Obamacare which is the opening to strip rights.

My "American" truck was made in Mexico. My wife's "foreign" car I bought her was made in Alabama. I have only owned "American" automobiles up until now. Between my wife and I we have owned 5 vehicles manufactured by US based auto companies. That trend ended a few years ago. I will never buy another GM or Chrysler vehicle in my life. I'd buy a Ford if they weren't so pricey, but family comes first. As much as I would like to support American based companies, if they aren't competitive then I am not going to buy it and find it silly that folks will still try to guilt their fellow Americans into buying into such lunacy. Every employee of GM is responsible for that company bottoming out; from the ground floor all the way to the top. They've allowed the unions to make manufacturing so fiscally inefficient that they can't compete with foreign companies even though many manufacture right here in the US. Kinda funny how many of these plants are in the south and don't have the union influence of the "motor" state. My heart doesn't bleed for those people. They all took part in creating a situation that is hopeless. What is crazy is that Michiganders still chose to blame "fat cat" CEOs and Republicans for their own doing. They will continue to swallow the Democrat BS right to hell, and for that they deserve exactly what they get, which is going to be an entire state that looks like Detroit. Eff 'em.

It's actually better since it is not Lincoln's.

I guess GJ's proposal to end the IRS is the same as RP's proposal to do away with the Fed. Both as likely as getting back to the Gold standard. Yes, I'm a party pooper.

Best retort ever.

I've always thought one that said something to the effect of: "Senators and Representative's net worth may not increase while they hold office" would be quite appropriate.

i my prior life i carried every day nearly i carried a sig p220 you can have all the new wizz bang stuff you want but i will stick to a 45 acp

I dont know.

Every election since I have been alive was "the most crucial election of our history". That crap gets old. You guys must have a finer view of the gray that separates the two parties anymore. My neck only knows that there is a boot, not whether it is the left or right one...

The THP did extensive accuracy and penatration testing with the 357 SiG Glock combination and it measured up very well. I know that they really did their homework on the changeover and spent a lot of time testing the gun and different round's. What I don't know though was how much influence the bottle neck round had in the mix. After all it's kind of a rehash of the 38 Super - 357 magnum where the .355 round at higher velocity was in demand.

I don't need to be a football star to understand why a team sucks so bad. I also am sick of all the whining coming from the Michigan auto industry that blames everyone but their own crooked ways.

So let me get this straight. Obama can single handedly turn us into a communism but Johnson has no chance of furthering the idea of doing away with the IRS? OK, got it. It's not such a crazy idea to not have an IRS or income tax. The US did fine the first 130 years without an income tax. Heck by doing away with the IRS, it would at inherently end the ATF. http://www.irs.gov/i...=101101,00.html

must be something in the water i just ordered a wilson gas piston 458 socom

its a 2 party thing and thats probably not gonna change very soon , so if you vote for the 3rd party man you are looking for weakness in the 1st and 2nd parties voting base but if only one of the 1st or 2nd parties voters show a vote of support for the 3rd party then the only accomplishment of the 3rd was to hand victory to either opponent but not win himself thats why with the 2 party system you have left leaning or right leaning canidates within each party and it is all about the money in the end Im not saying its right but Im not falling for the 3rd party utopian promise either

Come on DaddyO, you're not supposed to stand for or by anything anymore. Real men waffle these days in hopes that things will get better the next go around.

Phbt. Lincoln freed the slaves with the 13th amendment and enslaved all Americans with the 14th amendment. With the 14th amendment he also elevated corporations to the same level as humans in the eyes of the Constitution and is greatly to blame for many issues we face now. Not to mention that he proved that State rights mean nothing to the .gov.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Mitt sure as shootin' ain't gonna bring us back to constitutional principles and he ain't no friend of the Second Amendment OR gun owners. I'll stand by my original assessment.

Much truth here in what OhShoot said. They arent RINOS so much as not very conservative. But my butt will be out there voting for him all the same. Unless there is a rtrmendous groundsweel of support for a third partier, it is GONNA be either Mitt or Obama. I aint a huge fan of Mitt, but I'll take over Obama anyday!

Because supporting someone who can not and will not win election against a liberal communist dictator-want-a-be doesn't provide a "u-turn" at all; it only supports continuing down the same road and likely at a faster pace than would happen if we elected the Republican candidate.

Troopers shoot across further distances than in an urban enviroment, pentration THORUGH barriers such as glass and metal is much better with less deflection, and it's a better round in most every way. Regardless of what cops will tell you, Metro depts went with a .40 becasue of fear of over penatration with a 9mm projectile in a close range urban enviroment. In a congested urban enviroment the .40 makes sense in a collateral damage context. For Troopers, where that is not so much a factor, it is better for them to have a round that will get through car barriers that they have to shoot through over greter distances.

Some might say let it sink. Let the undertow drown the ones who can't swim. Let the ones who have the testicular fortitude to persevere and make it back to shore build a new ship and be free from the burden that destroyed the first ship.

Strikes go on for months sometimes. You could do as you say, fire all the lazy bums and hire a totally new work force. All positions would be filled in less than a week in this economy. You could have them trained and eagerly working in two or three. Also, the car companies wouldn't have to pay ridiculous retirement packages to the bunch of non deserving degenerates. The company could actually afford to pay the new work force a higher wage and STILL come out on top from not having to pull dead weight. Why people in this country are deluded into thinking that because they manage to cling on to a job for a given amount of time, they are OWED something, is beyond me. The world owes you NOTHING. Where also does the delusion of what you've done in the past mean something today, come from? If a worker is not worth the money they make, kick them to the curb. It's not a soldier who give life or limb for ALL of us, to those, we owe, yes. The rest of the working world, earn your bread, every single day or STARVE. It's natural selection and survival of the fittest. Life here on earth has been bound to and by that law since the dawn of time. Where people get this entitled, better than that, high and mighty attitude from I'll never know.

I will never understand why anyone high up in a corporation would sign an agreement that they could not fire their employees if said employees refused to work (strike) over their pay (which was negotiated at the time of hireing). Unions should be easy to handle... if they cause trouble, you fire all the workers. Plenty of people would love to have the job at the current pay if the current crop of people do not like the wages and want to quit. The problem lies 100% with the idiots that allow the unions to bully them into stupid agreements, and in some places, the idiots that elected idiots that give "rights" to the unions that infringe upon the rights of the employers. Its not actually the fault of the union: if some moron promised me a job where I could get whatever pay I demanded for doing however much work I feel like doing, I would take it too! I cannot bring myself to care. The companies did it to themselves by agreeing to allow the unions to have authority inside their holdings. The people did it to themselves by voting in people who made stupid union enabling laws. It is totally self inflicted.

I call total Bovine Scatoloty on this. I don't care what this guy wants, says or believes; the President doesn't have that power to begin with(and if this guy thinks the President does then it automatically disqualifies him from office because he clearly doesn't understand the powers of the Presidency) and the chance of getting Congress to do away with the IRS is such a non-starter that there are no adequate words to express how much of a non-starter it is.

That change happened at least a few yeas ago and I suspect their reasons were the similar to why I carry 357 Sig; I think it's simply a better round. Dick Metcalf said it this way...

I'm voting for Dickie Weed. He promised to take a bunch of crop dusters and spray the entire country of Pakistan with bacon fat. I like that, so I'm gonna make him the president (he calls it King of the World).

Yeah BK, stop telling the truth. No one wants to hear that crap.

Looking at your post history you must be the campaign manager for Gary Johnson.

You are absolutely right! Our founding fathers were idealists and they would truly be ashamed of the 2-party system we've allowed to take root. It's just hard to be a pragmatist and an idealist, so tough choices must be made.

I disagree. I think voting for fringe parties IS a wasted vote. Furthermore, I think it is the strength of the 2 major parties that got us into this situation. Party affiliations were created to categorize candidates. Without these categorizations, most voters couldn't spend the time needed to learn every candidate's position on the major topics in order to vote more accurately. Some of us do lean strongly to one side or another, but the majority of America, like it or not, is in the middle. The whole battle is to lean JUST far enough to one side or another and keep the center on your side. Wanting viable 3rd or 4th party choices that are more closely aligned with your beliefs is natural and admirable. I understand and agree with your principles completely. However, there's too much at risk for both sides to back a 3rd or 4th party that has no chance of winning. Sure, the Republicans are no longer conservative enough for most of us, but they're more conservative than the Democraps. We cannot afford 4 more years of this crap, so NOT voting for Romney truly IS like voting for Obama.

There was no other viable candidates running and voting for anyone other than Bush would only have served to put Mr. Tree or Catsup man in office.It isn't a matter of attitude; it's a matter of math.No one here and certainly I'm not saying GWB was perfect or even close to it but do I miss him compared to the socialist dictator-want-a-be we currently have in office (which is the point of the thread)? HELL YES.

In other words you could have wasted your time and voted for some other candidate that didnt ever stand a snowballs chance in hell.

I just had a 6ft privacy fence built and was charged $15 a ft. It was well worth the money too. I watched the two guys using a 2 man auger take all day to set the posts. The ground was as hard as you could possibly imagine. Only one hole had any rock in it and no tree roots in any. Just rock hard dirt. There is no telling how long I would have had to work by myself to get those posts set.

For nearly 100 years Automotive industry did not suffer from any government intervention. The troubles in Automotive are consequences of corporate decision making. Top executives base most decisions on their short term personal goals. They do not care of technical superiority of domestic cars. Americans do not buy "foreign made cars". They buy the cars they like to drive means technically advanced cars. Germans and Japanese (under socialist governments) managed to build such cars. After all the notion "domestic" and "import" are not straightforward. Ford Fusion is totally Mexican car while Honda Accord is domestic (made in Ohio) Unions are evil. Big corporation are even more evil. They would destroy entire country for short term profits of greedy executives.

Now if you could figure out a way to turn that into a 4,000 page document it would probably pass with ease.

BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!! Have you no shame?

This happens a lot, but people get all fired up over something and forget. Write it down. Do not forget it. DO NOT CONFRONT RANDOM PEOPLE. IT IS NOT WORTH IT. Eventually, someone who has both the authority to do so and the training, backup, and means to handle it will take care of it. If you want to do something, record and report on it. If the cops/officials ignore you, stir the pot with the internet or local news.

I spent 12 years in Michigan. At north-eastern suburb of Detroit. I know the history. There was a riot in 1967. The mayor of Detroit Jerome Cavanagh had some connections with the leaders of local ethnic criminal groups. He betrayed the citizens of Detroit. After a minor looting took place at 12th street shop, Cavanagh refused to pull the National guard to the city. It encouraged the looters. Later on president of the US Lyndon Johnson ordered National guard and 82nd Airborne into the city. And again, mayor of Detroit refused to authorise the soldiers to make arrests. The mob led by ethnic criminal gangs destroyed most of the business south of 8 mile road. The mobsters displaced most of West-European descendants from the city. Once a model city Detroit was irreversibly ruined. Neither hard working citizens not business returned. I do not know how much the gang leaders profited of that riot. However they still rule the place. Not democrats

If I'm gonna be smacked with french fries, I want them to be from Five Guys!!!

It seems odd to me for AV to be such a strong supporter of RP in the past and now he's going even further away from a possible wining candidate with GJ....? Whatever. IMO, If you are truly for freedom and liberty you better vote to get this idiot out of office and that's not going to happen going 3rd party. Then do your best in your local elections to get your libertarian favorites in a respectable position in government. Maybe one day you'll have your day, one in Nov. won't be it.

Funny. I think what it does show is that ArmyVeteran is supporter of freedom and liberty more than just a supporter of any candidate. If it was anybody but Obama we are facing in November, I would probably be voting for Johnson too. I trust Johnson to keep his word a lot more than Romney. Since it is Obama, I came to the conclusion that there was just too much to risk by voting for a third party candidate. Obama has to be removed from office either by impeachment and conviction or by losing the election. Either works for me. As a side note on all of the RP and GJ threads, I am amazed at how many people whine about all of the threads posted. I think anyone who has been on the forum for a little while knows what type of thread AV is going to post, especially if it is in the political section. As long as he isn't violating TGO's rules, terms, and conditions, I say keep them coming. For those that don't like them, well... that is really tough s**t. Nobody forces anyone to click on the threads.

RonPaul's feelings are going to be hurt.