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6.8, those facts are not in dispute. They aren't even facts. Treyvon Martin was walking down the street between townhouses in a gated community in which he was a visitor, not a permanent resident Zimmerman started the fight with a swift nose to Martins' knuckles. Treyvon Martin had no duty to retreat either. He had a right to “stand his ground†and fight his attacker continue beating the guy he attacked Unfortunately for Treyvon he brought a set of fists to a gun fight attacked a legally armed private citizen And because he didn’t have the physical ability to take care of business he (and many others) feel that when he figured out he bit off more than he could chew; it’s okay to take out a gun and kill the kid. He’s wrong, and he’s going to find out just how wrong he is. Blah blah blah, a real man doesn't need to carry a gun, he settles everything with his fists. These are pretty much the same 'facts', arguments and attitudes you can get at, say, huffpost or the various Brady orgs. Only cops need to carry guns.

I have drawn some conclusions about this case. I've tried to read everything, AND consider the sources. We SHOULD be talking about this. There are little snippets of valuable information that one of us might need some day. All self defense shootings are gnarly, some more than others.

I view this thread as a bunch of harmless banter, with a lot of information thrown in. TGO always has conflicitng opinions on about any subject. Nobody needs to get their drawers in a wad.

I know one thing for certain, I hope that Zimmerman's story is proven correct and he is cleared of any wrong doing. If for no other reason than Dave has to admit he was wrong. It would be a first.

Zimmerman's "victim" may well have been the aggressor. Zimmerman's "victim" may well have been intent on a lot more than an "azz whipping" as you so colorfully put it. Zimmerman may well have been 100% justified to do exactly what he did and is alive today only because he did it. Of course, if one has already made up his mind about who was the victim and that it was only an "azz whipping" then none of the above matters. It must be comforting to be so damn certain of something that you weren't there to observe.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the term "White-Hispanic" was created for this story. I can't say that I'd ever heard that term before this story broke.

Well of course you would, because you are well protected and it’s not your neighborhood that will get burned, or your neighbors that will get injured. Flexing your muscles to a crowd that is looking for any reason to start a riot will sure show them how tough you are.

“Stand your ground†was Florida’s buzz word for not having to retreat. Tennessee doesn’t need to pass stand your ground legislation because we don’t have a duty to retreat. No duty to retreat means that when Treyvon was walking down the street and was accosted by a stranger, he didn’t have to run or try to get away (although he did, according to Zimmerman); he could retaliate and try to protect himself. Unfortunately for Treyvon the perp had a gun. No one knows for sure how or why they got in a fight, but they did. Some want us to believe that because the perp approached Treyvon, Treyvon attacked him and brutally beat him, causing Treyvon to now become the aggressor, which justified Zimmerman killing him. That is the self-defense claim. Common sense tells me that is non-sense. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle after being told by the dispatcher that he did not need to follow Treyvon. You can hear him make a racial slur in disgust as he exits the truck. Did Treyvon hear it? I don’t know. But now Treyvon is approached by a guy that has been following him in a truck, got out, and Treyvon may have heard the racial slur and got scared. I don’t know. That may have caused him to fight for his life. Zimmerman claims Treyvon knocked him down and was beating his head into the pavement; so he pulled his gun out and killed him. Zimmerman’s friend (who is all over the press talking about what Zimmerman told him happened, but saying he can’t really say anything) is alluding to the fact that the gun may have went off accidently. So the question becomes, can you be the aggressor in what the victim may have perceived was going to turn into an attack, an unprovoked attack on someone walking down the street, and when they protect themselves you kill them? I say no, you can try all you want to claim self-defense when you have killed someone in a situation you started; but give a jury any reason to throw out the self-defense and you are gone to prison. I want to see a trial. We don’t get to see all the evidence and neither does the press. Treyvon’s autopsy results are sealed. Was he hit in the face? Was he grabbed by the arm when Zimmerman approached him? Did his hands show any indications of the terrible beating Zimmerman claimed? Were his hands covered in Zimmerman’s blood from beating his head into the pavement? We don’t know.

How can you have an "opinion" about Zimmerman's guild or innocence when just a few posts ago, you were presenting "the facts" about it??? ROTFLMAO

Yeah, and d-nile isn't just a river in Egypt. We know Martin is dead and that's the only part of that sentence that is an actual "fact". Wow..."fact" hugh? Really? Please cite your references for these facts; especially your wild-sassed assertion that I ever said anything like the above garbage you attributed to me. Yes, Martin had no duty to retreat. beyond that, other than your opinion, there is no basis to assume that Martin is the victim and Zimmerman the aggressor even though that's how you want to present it. Wow...not only do you know everything that happened you even know what Zimmerman was even thinking...amazing.As I said before, It must be a real comfort to be so damn certain of something that you weren't there to observe. It must also have been a real time-saver, you know, when you were a cop...you probably never had to actually go the scene of a crime 'cause you probably just already "knew" all that needed to be known. I haven't spun anything. Where in this thread have I claimed to know what happened? If you want to see someone who claims to know what happened (even though he wasn't there) look in a mirror.The only thing I try to identify with are facts or in the case of this incident, quite a lack of them (your assertions to the contrary notwithstanding). Yep...thanks to two groups that are equally deserving of scorn and dismissal; the racists who want the "White Hispanic" dead regardless of ANY facts, and the closed minded who has convicted Zimmerman based on assumptions and assertions they try to pass off as "fact".

Wow.... "dirtbag"???.... Trayvon walking along, minding his own business???..... I'm pretty sure those are assumptions on your behalf and NOT even close to facts.... You are right about one thing- you shouldn't be concerned with a trial because you've already convicted Zimmerman and sentenced him to the death penalty ("He'll live in fear the rest of his life").

Just read an update. Zimmerman (elected as neighborhood watch captain) lost sight of Martin because Martin was walking quite slowly on a pathway between the town houses instead of on the well lighted sidewalks in front of the houses. Martin apparently hides in some bushes. Zimmerman gets out of his SUV to look for Martin, fails to find him, and is returning to his SUV when Martin comes up behind him. Martins GF hears Martin ask Zimmerman "Why are you following me?". She hears Zimmerman ask "What are you doing around here?". The next sound is apparently Martin responding to the question by punching Zimmerman. Zimmerman falls partially onto the concrete sidewalk. Martin sits on him and starts banging his head into the concrete. Multiple witnesses now state that Martin initiated use of force and that Zimmerman was getting his head smashed in - and calling for help - before he shot. Really looking for trouble to take a beating before you shoot a guy that assaults you, huh? My training in use of force was somewhat different than others have posted here. Doesn't matter. Zimmerman isn't a cop - so he doesn't get the respect a cop would get.

He got to live more years than his victim. He snuffed his life out at the age of 17 instead of taking an azz whipping. I bet right now he’s wishing he hadn’t had a gun on him. Everyone would more than likely be alive and he wouldn’t have a bounty on his head.

I've come to only two conclusions; one is that that there aren't enough facts for anyone to reach an informed conclusion about who was in the right and who was in the wrong.The other conclusion I've come to is that there are too many people willing to condemn a man based on virtually nothing at all; even to the point of ignoring information that doesn't support their already formed and often baseless opinion.

The problem is the Leadership in the House, (which gets its direction from the Governor). One must remember that Haslam and Harwell have been huge backers of Lamar Alexander in all his campaigns. (Proof that he is non supportive of firearms rights was his stance as the ONLY Republican Senator to vote against the permit holder's ability to carry in National Parks). Had we a Governor that championed this issue, it would be a foregone conclusion for passage, but currently we have one who, until just shy of the election for the seat, was a member of Bloomberg's Mayors Against Illegal Guns. He has never been a supporter of Firearms Rights, and is a Big Business/Big Government proponent. We MUST show a win against the Statist Quo in Nashville. I perceive the best opportunity to achieve a beneficial win is to support Lt. Col. Courtney Rogers in her contest in House District 45 against Debra Maggart. Maggart is Caucus Chair, and is one of the legs of the tripod Harwell/Maggart/McCormick that has strangled the House actions relative to firearms issues. Take out one leg of a tripod and it can not stand. I feel that we need to point all our artillery at that one single race and fire for effect if we want to show that we are serious as grass roots organizations. I will be espousing this to the Tea Party groups across the State, and we need to get any and all who are sick and tired of the Liberal Republican Junta that thumbs their nose at the hundreds of thousands of gun owners who wish to see a return to Constitutional principals in Tennessee.

This. And keep it concealed.

Some folks around here got their use of force curriculum in a strange school. Asking someone what their business is in your neighborhood is grounds to get beaten, but responding to a beating with a firearm is a no-no.

Easy to carry goes to the 9mm. You're more likely to need self defense against the two-legged animal, not the bear. Best to be prepared against a multiple attackers than the less frequent bear. Leave he 454 for hunting. Carry the 17 rounds of 9mm and an extra magazine. Have a comfy holster and enjoy your trip.

I saw an enhanced frame of the video from the police station. It is still crappy low-rez, but Zimmerman had a hell of a gash on the back of his head. One of the cops makes an obvious check of it. It is equally obvious in the ABC news version that their "ABC News Exclusive" graphic is deliberately placed (and in fact moves slightly) to occlude the gash. I don't live in a gated community. Even so, I am familiar with most everyone that lives on my road. If I see a 'person of interest', I will follow and greet if possible. If the 'person of interest' has an attitude, I'm gonna be real curious as to their intentions. This is not an aggressive act. If they decide to to start a fight, then it is Katy bar the door. Zimmerman claims Martin struck first. Eyewitness sees Martin as the attacker. Eyewitness reports Zimmerman screaming for help. Injuries noted in the police report are consistent with Zimmermans' account and eyewitness account. Absolutely NO evidence or eyewitness account that Zimmerman was the aggressor at any point. Respectfully request that statements made here that Zimmerman is a coward be substantiated. Likewise that Zimmerman deserved being brutally assaulted. Please be prepared to support your conclusion with the evidence we have at hand. Alternately, suggest you be very cautious walking down my road.

Evel Knievel couldn't even jump this far!

Perfect place for the 1911. If you don't have one, good reason to buy another gun. If you are going with another person, would keep it simple and carry a .22, like a Ruger Single-Six....good human deterent, and if you encounter a bear, shoot your buddy in the leg so you can be sure to out run him......

I looked it up, Zimmerman is a JEWISH/GERMAN surname. So now the media can refer to him as a WHITE JEW hispanic. There's one thing Jessie and the Panthers hate more than whitey, that's Jews.

Robert, the facts I’m basing my opinions on are not in dispute. Treyvon Martin was walking down the street minding his own business, drinking tea and having some skittles; minutes later he was dead. Some azzhat neighborhood watch guy decided he looked suspicious so he stalked him, got out of his truck and chased him, called him a “f*@#ing coonâ€, got in a fight with him (according to you) and shot him to death. Treyvon Martin had no duty to retreat either. He had a right to “stand his ground†and fight his attacker. Unfortunately for Treyvon he brought a set of fists to a gun fight. This dirtbag couldn’t handle a 17 year old kid; he had no business out messing with people. And because he didn’t have the physical ability to take care of business he (and many others) feel that when he figured out he bit off more than he could chew; it’s okay to take out a gun and kill the kid. He’s wrong, and he’s going to find out just how wrong he is. Maybe you can identify with this guy because he’s a gun owner; I can’t. You can put any spin on it that you want, but if what you claim happened; I hope he is convicted and sent to prison. I don’t know, maybe I shouldn’t be so concerned with a trial. Even if this guy doesn’t go to trial, his life as he knows it is over. He’ll live in fear the rest of his life.

Not to hi-jack the thread from the value of Alcohol (it is valuable now and will continue to be), but I wanted to chime in on the SHTF scenario. So many scenarios listed here are possible, some even probable. There are only a few that could come any moment and we would have no warning, and of those, most would not be a long term issue. The one that could come with no warning, change everything for ever, and we have no evidence to suggest how likely or unlikely it is, is the old classic that no one on "Doomsday Preppers" ever mentions, and its more scary than zombies. Aliens. It is nearly a mathimatic impossibility that there is NOT intelligent life out there. In fact, it is likely there are COUNTLESS intelligent races. Many of you may say, "if an alien race has the technology to get here, there is no "prepping" that can be done. They will simply scrape us off this planet with their boot heel and be done with it." That is a distinct possibility. But, we have numerous examples in Earth's history where a vastly superior invader did NOT completely wipe out the native population. One great thing about prepping is that alot of the work you do for one SHTF scenario will be helpful for a different one, so whatever gets you going is the one for which to prepare. But about everytime I stop to think, "well, the dollar could pull through" or "I am 600 miles form a major faultline" or "I live in a rural area"...I remember that hostiles from Zeta Reticuli could be popping into our solar La Grange as we speak. Maybe they have have The Death Star, or maybe they are just Force Recon wanting to see how resilient we are. Can they just roll us into the sea, or will we get our "guerilla on". If they have the Death Star, then prepping isn't much good unless you are building a space raft. But if they have a media like we do...then if we make it nasty enough, maybe we survive. Cheers!

That's a real game changer.

I used to watch it, knowing it was fake, but thought some of the weapons were interesting. I no longer watch it. My favorite was then the boss suddenly came up with the new and briliant idea to combine accuracy of an AR-15 with the reliability of an AK-47 by... wait for it... putting a piston drive on an AR-15. According to the show, no one has ever done this before, and the military was amazed by this novel idea. And then there was a weapons test and secret deal in the desert, complete with a "general" watching from a blacked-out SUV. It's the same as "professional wrasslin' matches" in the 70's and 80's. Some people SWEAR they are real. I know many people who swear that shows like "Lizard Lick Towing" are real documentaries.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! Glad to hear the lantern is getting a workout. I've gotten rid of about half my collection, though - I moved. Managed to find a place with more woods around it. You ever want to go mountain camping, give me a shout - a couple thousand acres here to get lost in.

Cor-Bon DPX

"Victim" my hairy buttocks. Assailant is the proper term.

6.8 thats what I was thinking. I have reread the posts and see very little to laugh about. Gideon's picture is obviously photoshopped, Martin was quite angelic yanno.

Really? You know this for a fact do you?And by the way, if he is never charged or is charged and found not guilty; what is wrong with making money selling his story? I think selling a product and making money from doing so is called capitalism. Let's see...you shoot a 17 year old; justified or not. You face possible charges and jail time. You are under a microscope by the national vultures...I mean press. You have you life not just threatened with credible threats but have a price put on your head. Whether you were in any way justified or not for shooting; your life is effectively down that toilet and you aren't even 30 years old yet. Yeah..only a drama queen would have any sort of stress disorder from this incident. I'm so glad you pointed that out.

That's what everyone here is doing. Both sides believes their tainted sources. I am certain that the justice department or SPD hasn't faxed anyone here any memos or asked for opinions. So, we are all coming to conclusions based upon the facts or lack thereof presented to us by our chosen source of information.

You never go "full retard"

You just lie in wait for me like a sniper don't ya? I hope that you all know that after a while I have to make light of these situations because we all have a tendency to get too caught up in these matters. I am not offended when I am called politically correct or a liberal. I would rather be thought of in those terms than be lumped with a group of evil hearted pyeudo-christian assholes who contradict the teaching of Christ everytime that they weight in on issues that could trully use compassion, thought and understanding. In other words I have no clue as to what happened. No one on TGO does and I decided to rattle some cages because we are all starting be believe that we are experts in the subject matter.

Distributors do not 'hoard'. Profit for a distributor comes from how often they can turn over their inventory. Stock that sits still is lost profit. For a distributor, the ideal day is when inventory is delivered in the morning and shipped out in the afternoon. for a manufacturer, the situation is similar. They want to have raw materials arrive just as they are needed, and have inventory sold as soon as it is made into product. When demand spikes, like now, it means that the dealers place more orders with distrubutors, who place more orders with manufacturers, who place more orders with their suppliers. When materials are received, they are manufactured as quickly a possible. If the manufacturer is already at 90-100% capacity, then there are additional delays as added machinery or people are brought in. Some things like ammo have very long lead times. That is because the larger the lot of a particular load, the cheaper it is to make. But again, they do not want to make too much, as inventory that is not sold is lost profit. These are the reasons Production Schedulers and Purchasing Managers have white, or no, hair!

I'd go with the 9. On the hip. No need in stuffing a full size pistol in your pants for a 12-mile hike. That just sounds painful. Carrying inside the pack also seems to defeat the purpose. Just my two pennies worth.

Ruger Mark whatever or the Browning if you want a semi.

It's an election year.

Can't keep up with the demand. As i heard a wise man say " it's going full retard"

i can promise that if this doesnt pass my voting record will not be the same as in the past

DHS has 200,000 employees. That comes out to 2,250 rounds for each one...wait that's spread out over five (5) years.... that's 450 rounds for each employee per year. Doesn't seem like too much to me. I'm gonna put my tin foil hat back up for the time being.

Hey, at least it wasn't scissors! And what is the difference between a 1911 with the safety off and a gluck?

No on everything.

Personally, I think the article left out the beginning of the guy's story. My thought is that his account actually started out with: "I was just walking along, eating these funny looking mushrooms I found when..."

You should have: 1. shot the dog 2. shot at least two shots in the air for celebration 3. held the owners for the police 4. been surprised when you went to jail really, you did good

Actually the Judas thing goes waayyy back. When in doubt I find decapitation works universally. Even if not permanently, separating the two will usually lighten the tension of the moment enough to allow you some thinking/breathing room to plan your next move.

This whole precious metals in a SHTF or survival situation has always confused me. If it really is TEOTWAWKI, Gold is not going to be useful to me. I actually think Beans or seeds will be worth their weight in Gold. But gold won't be? Maybe