Denial of Handgun Purchase Because of Invalid DL No.

[LawEnforcementSalesTN]

The thing with the appeal is you need to see exactly WHY they denied and that's the only vehicle to do so... they won't (normally) disclose over the phone.  I wouldn't just take any automated response and as I've stated they won't tell the dealers anything unless it's a friendship thing and I don't really see them doing that.  The appeal form is the only way really to accurately get your root problem.  If it IS the prior charge, then you have the artifact you need to then speak with a firearms attorney and know what options you have.

 

I honestly do not believe it's anyone trying to harrass or personal agendas... most of them, heck ALL the folks I've met from TBI are pro gun and are for us.  They do a lot of thankless stuff for us all.  I frequently get calls and emails from them saying dealer X in Y has a customer looking for an old model smith this or that... or an agent looking for something personal ... They don't have to do this and if they hated us they wouldn't.  I know there's bad apples everywhere but my opinion, for what it's worth, is something on your record (right or wrong) caused an exception and you need to know what .. most of this is automated but if something kicks out from the NICS check, it then goes for a quick analyst review.. now, might be you happen to hit the lease experience analyst or whomeever, they then hit the wrong button or whatever... 

 

 

My suggestion would be to call the dealer Monday... get the TICS # and fax the appeal and see what it says.  I would not stack attempts on top of each other as I highly expect there's something on the record that's making the automatic approval kick out and will continue to do so..  You applied and unfortunately they denied... if this is new for you and the first time, appeal it and see why.. my experience has been this, as aggravating as I know it is to the customer, they've (ALL) ended up in the end with their weapon. 

 

I do not know everything about the state's statutes around probation, alcohol, DUI influences and such ... some on here I'm sure know it much better from either curiosity or necessity to find out for themselves ... but TBI will get it right and it may just take them getting the form to do their thorough due dillegence... I never got a "give them the gun we're sorry" ... but I have got several "give them the gun after furter discovery we are reversing our denial decision" .. that's the ultimate result you want. 

 

The bottom line is if it IS the DUI that caused this, please remember it's YOUR DUI not theirs... you've already manned up and admitted to making that bad decision and this may just be some residual you'll have to deal with. It's sounding from the other post it shouldn't be anything to limit you so I assume your reversal chances appear very high. 

 

All of this is my experience as a dealer and my opinion.  Nothing is meant to be condenscending and I hope it's not taking as that .. just seems logical to me this would be the best route.

 

As always, best of luck in getting it quickly and easily resolved.

[JohnC]

The thing with the appeal is you need to see exactly WHY they denied and that's the only vehicle to do so... they won't (normally) disclose over the phone.  I wouldn't just take any automated response and as I've stated they won't tell the dealers anything unless it's a friendship thing and I don't really see them doing that.  The appeal form is the only way really to accurately get your root problem.  If it IS the prior charge, then you have the artifact you need to then speak with a firearms attorney and know what options you have.

 

I honestly do not believe it's anyone trying to harrass or personal agendas... most of them, heck ALL the folks I've met from TBI are pro gun and are for us.  They do a lot of thankless stuff for us all.  I frequently get calls and emails from them saying dealer X in Y has a customer looking for an old model smith this or that... or an agent looking for something personal ... They don't have to do this and if they hated us they wouldn't.  I know there's bad apples everywhere but my opinion, for what it's worth, is something on your record (right or wrong) caused an exception and you need to know what .. most of this is automated but if something kicks out from the NICS check, it then goes for a quick analyst review.. now, might be you happen to hit the lease experience analyst or whomeever, they then hit the wrong button or whatever... 

 

 

My suggestion would be to call the dealer Monday... get the TICS # and fax the appeal and see what it says.  I would not stack attempts on top of each other as I highly expect there's something on the record that's making the automatic approval kick out and will continue to do so..  You applied and unfortunately they denied... if this is new for you and the first time, appeal it and see why.. my experience has been this, as aggravating as I know it is to the customer, they've (ALL) ended up in the end with their weapon. 

 

I do not know everything about the state's statutes around probation, alcohol, DUI influences and such ... some on here I'm sure know it much better from either curiosity or necessity to find out for themselves ... but TBI will get it right and it may just take them getting the form to do their thorough due dillegence... I never got a "give them the gun we're sorry" ... but I have got several "give them the gun after furter discovery we are reversing our denial decision" .. that's the ultimate result you want. 

 

The bottom line is if it IS the DUI that caused this, please remember it's YOUR DUI not theirs... you've already manned up and admitted to making that bad decision and this may just be some residual you'll have to deal with. It's sounding from the other post it shouldn't be anything to limit you so I assume your reversal chances appear very high. 

 

All of this is my experience as a dealer and my opinion.  Nothing is meant to be condenscending and I hope it's not taking as that .. just seems logical to me this would be the best route.

 

As always, best of luck in getting it quickly and easily resolved.

 

Thanks for the reply. :up:

 

I see as a (former or current?) LEO, that you have some inside knowledge and can vouch this isn't about harassment, etc..

 

So I suppose the folks getting denied need to fax the appeal themselves, find out why they were denied, and then get whatever fixed in their records or Identification so they won't be getting denied for X reason anymore. 

 

Sound correct? Once they find out what is causing the issue, get it fixed, they don't get denied anymore, right? 

[LawEnforcementSalesTN]

Thanks for the reply. :up:

 

I see as a (former or current?) LEO, that you have some inside knowledge and can vouch this isn't about harassment, etc..

 

So I suppose the folks getting denied need to fax the appeal themselves, find out why they were denied, and then get whatever fixed in their records or Identification so they won't be getting denied for X reason anymore. 

 

Sound correct? Once they find out what is causing the issue, get it fixed, they don't get denied anymore, right? 

 

I didn't see RWF's prior post and I'm sure as an attorney John you're seeing more of the denial ?s come across your desk than my experience as a dealer through my transfers I do.  I also need to say 70% of my customer base is federal local goverment so that may have a big part my success... I've only had 4-5 denials out of 400+ approvals over the last 2 years... but I do deal with TBI and personally don't think it's anything on their part... now they all follow rules to collect paychecks and I can't speak to anyone above them with more power and their agendas.. you get into the senate and house and that's where a lot of this personal BS exists and I do agree it NEEDs to stop .. but the average Joe in the trenches with TBI is just like you and I .. been pretty good folks from my perspective.

 

1) I do 100% agree the appeal is TBI's means for the customer to find out the "why" and I'd expect everyone should want to know this, otherwise it's speculation, assumptions and we know how quickly things can go, as I like to say, from "Sugar to Sh*t when we apply those ;o)  As far as who sends the fax, shouldn't matter, I'd gladly help my customers or anyone for that matter but they will only reply to the appeal back to the customer directly not the transfer dealer.

 

2) Depending on what's found, to correct going forward in my few experiences has been different.  I have not had a repeat transfer in my handful so I don't know if there is a note added to TICS/NICS or whatever. I expect as RWF states it's probably something that plagues the buyer until the root issue is corrected. He mentioned a PIN # and they may assign some reference but there's no way for us to send that during the approval.. I assume that may be just an expedited means to fax TBI afterwards and get the reversal info back to the dealer ASAP. THIS I can empathize would SUCK!!

 

Regardless though on the repeating impacts to same applicant, there's something with the applicant's name, prior address, SSN, charge, whatever that is causing the flag and I assume will continue to cause them to be denied until something is done.  I don't believe anyone is profiled outside of a disgruntled agent, personal issue and if so that employee should be immediately fired and action taken.  Nothing, outside of training, sporadic mistakes, should impacting these transfers.  

 

With the repeats, they're of course either warranted or not.... when "NOT", is when they need to come to you guys to get it off, fight for em, etc... ;o) 

 

I do concur 150% if it's unwarranted, the state need some way to systemically denote/clear the issue in efforts to keep the customer from continuously "proving" themselves. I'm just not privy to their systems to know if there's a means to do so at TBI's disposal. 

 

We all know charges can be expunged but require the expertise of you and your bretheren to correctly do so.

 

The event has been done as I suggest use their requested means to find out why.. once we all know we can further recommend what, if anything, can be done to push forward.  If you were a random mistake, the fact you appeal will have them look harder at the why and any error on their part will be reversed and they should tell you.  If it's nothing you should get an apology but would know/feel better about future purchases.

[eRay]

I had 544 sales along with 15 denials. Out of the 15 denials, all were appealed and 11 were approved after the appeal. Just to give you an idea of the percentages. I usually gave the customer an appeal form right there in the shop and after they filled it out, I faxed it to TICS. TICS likes for the dealer to do this as they say a lot of appeals can not be approved because of the denied person not properly completing the appeal form. The dealer usually catches missing info before he faxes it for the customer improving the odds of the denial being overturned. I agree with lawenforcementsales,that most of the examiners at TICS are professional people trying to help us. Never had a bad experience with any of them.

[battleop]

If this is a side effect of getting a DUI then I really don't have a problem with that.   Getting a DUI is completely irresponsible and absolutely 100% avoidable.  

[eRay]

If this is a side effect of getting a DUI then I really don't have a problem with that.   Getting a DUI is completely irresponsible and absolutely 100% avoidable.  

 

Also, it is only 12 months. Not like a lifetime ban. And certainly less of a burden that having your automobile confiscated.

[Troutburger]

One possible reason for a denial is any open or pending charges.

So if something from your DUI conviction hasn't closed out in their system yet, it would flag you for denial. 

[Oh Shoot]

If this is a side effect of getting a DUI then I really don't have a problem with that.   Getting a DUI is completely irresponsible and absolutely 100% avoidable.  

 

If TN wants to enact a law that says you can't buy a firearm for a year after a DUI, or can't buy one while serving a sentence for it, or whatever, that's one thing, but such is not the case. But if TBI is going to make an arbitrary rule that you are deemed to be an addict after a DUI conviction, that is quite another.

 

Perhaps it's okay with you that they deem you a mental defective because you once saw a psychologist regarding some personal problems, or had a script for an antidepressant, and could never own guns again?

 

This is a proverbial slippery slope, and enters into the area of civil rights.

 

- OS

Edited January 13, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[RWF]

Yeah, this seems more like harassment. If you do not have a felony, domestic violence or been adjudicated mentally ill or whatever, I see no reason at all that anyone should be denied. Something seriously needs to change to put a stop to these repetitive false denials. 

it just what the state checks for. the few years I lived in KY I never ever had any issue. when I checked into getting a federal PIN # the person on the phone was confused why I was asking for one.  and as I stated SBR and suppressors are easy.

about 12-14 years ago I was charged federally with a felony, but that's all, and that's as far as it went. 

[JohnC]

If TN wants to enact a law that says you can't buy a firearm for a year after a DUI, or can't buy one while serving a sentence for it, or whatever, that's one thing, but such is not the case. But TBI is going to make an arbitrary rule that you are deemed to be an addict after a DUI conviction, that is quite another.
 
Perhaps it's okay with you that they deem you a mental defective because you once saw a psychologist regarding some personal problems, or had a script for an antidepressant, and could never own guns again?
 
This is a proverbial slippery slope, and enters into the area of civil rights.
 
- OS

Agree.

Edited January 13, 2015 by JohnC

[RWF]

it just what the state checks for. the few years I lived in KY I never ever had any issue. when I checked into getting a federal PIN # the person on the phone was confused why I was asking for one.  and as I stated SBR and suppressors are easy.

about 12-14 years ago I was charged federally with a felony, but that's all, and that's as far as it went. 

 

sorry, I am old it should say "22-24 years ago"

[battleop]

Perhaps it's okay with you that they deem you a mental defective because you once saw a psychologist regarding some personal problems, or had a script for an antidepressant, and could never own guns again?

 

I fail to see the similarity here.   We're talking about a temporary problem that's come up because the OP choose to break the law and put other innocent parties at risk.   There just isn't any excuse what so ever for driving intoxicated.   

 

BTW don't take my last statement as being against drinking as I do consume adult beverages but I never put my self in a situation where I would drive while impaired.

[Oh Shoot]

I fail to see the similarity here.   We're talking about a temporary problem that's come up because the OP choose to break the law and put other innocent parties at risk.   There just isn't any excuse what so ever for driving intoxicated.   

 

There is also no legal basis in TN law for such an action. That's the point.

 

It's exactly the same crap as the HHS or ATF, making on-the-fly "rulings" regarding ObamaCare and firearm rights, but at least those powers are delegated by the original statutes. I know of no such interpretative power granted to the TBI to do so in this case.

 

Perhaps next they'll stake out AA meetings and cross reference people with HCPs. After all, attending an AA meeting means you're probably an addict right? Even if one hasn't had a drink in 20 years, he could still be deemed as being "addicted to alcohol". Maybe they should stake out your local liquor store, if you show up there more than X times a month, tag you as "addicted". Whatever.

 

If you're all for granting them the first power, you'd be in favor of granting them the others, seems to me.

 

- OS

Edited January 14, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[eRay]

 

 

 

There is also no legal basis in TN law for such an action. That's the point.

 

It's exactly the same crap as the HHS or ATF, making on-the-fly "rulings" regarding ObamaCare and firearm rights, but at least those powers are delegated by the original statutes. I know of no such interpretative power granted to the TBI to do so in this case.

 

Perhaps next they'll stake out AA meetings and cross reference people with HCPs. After all, attending an AA meeting means you're probably an addict right? Even if one hasn't had a drink in 20 years, he could still be deemed as being "addicted to alcohol". Maybe they should stake out your local liquor store, if you show up there more than X times a month, tag you as "addicted". Whatever.

 

If you're all for granting them the first power, you'd be in favor of granting them the others, seems to me.

 

- OS

 

I can see both sides of this issue. I certainly don't want TICS or any other law enforcement agency making up the laws as they go along. This is more the way things are done in Russia than in the US. I would be willing to bet that this interpretation was not what our legislators had in mind when they prohibited people addicted to alcohol from purchasing firearms.

 

On the other hand, If you and I are involved in a bad traffic accident Saturday night and your family is injured and you are as drunk as Cooter Brown, I would prefer you not have a firearm..

[eRay]

ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL

Tennessee law (TCA 39-17-1316(a)(1) added the following disqualification for

firearm transfer to the list of prohibitors found in federal law: “…..sales to persons who

are addicted to alcohol and sales to persons ineligible to receive them under 18 U.S.C.

section 922 are prohibited.” Alcohol is hereby defined as: any distilled spirits, wine, or

malt beverages. TICS uses the same standards for determining addiction to alcohol as are

used for dangerous drugs/controlled substances:

 A person who uses alcohol, as defined above, and has lost the power of selfcontrol

with reference to the use of alcohol; or

 A person convicted for use or possession of alcohol within the past year, or

 A person with multiple arrests for use or possession of alcohol within the past five

years if the most recent arrest occurred within the past year; or

 A person found through a blood alcohol test (BAT) or Breathalyzer Test to be

under the influence of alcohol if the test was lawfully administered and within the

past year; or

 A current or former military service member who received recent disciplinary or

other administrative action based on confirmed alcohol use (e.g., court-martial

conviction, non-judicial punishment, or an administrative discharge based on

alcohol abuse or alcohol rehabilitation failure).

A person may be an unlawful current user of alcohol even though the alcohol is

not being used at the precise time the person seeks to acquire a firearm or receives

or possesses a firearm; rather, the unlawful use only needs to have occurred

recently enough to indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such

conduct.

[Oh Shoot]

ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL
Tennessee law (TCA 39-17-1316(a)(1) added the following disqualification for
firearm transfer to the list of prohibitors found in federal law: “…..sales to persons who
are addicted to alcohol and sales to persons ineligible to receive them under 18 U.S.C.
section 922 are prohibited.” Alcohol is hereby defined as: any distilled spirits, wine, or
malt beverages.
 
 
TICS uses the same standards for determining addiction to alcohol as are
used for dangerous drugs/controlled substances:

 
And by what legal authority does TICS make that ruling?
 

 A person who uses alcohol, as defined above, and has lost the power of selfcontrol
with reference to the use of alcohol; or
 A person convicted for use or possession of alcohol within the past year, or
 A person with multiple arrests for use or possession of alcohol within the past five
years if the most recent arrest occurred within the past year; or
 A person found through a blood alcohol test (BAT) or Breathalyzer Test to be
under the influence of alcohol if the test was lawfully administered and within the
past year; or
 A current or former military service member who received recent disciplinary or
other administrative action based on confirmed alcohol use (e.g., court-martial
conviction, non-judicial punishment, or an administrative discharge based on
alcohol abuse or alcohol rehabilitation failure).
A person may be an unlawful current user of alcohol even though the alcohol is
not being used at the precise time the person seeks to acquire a firearm or receives
or possesses a firearm; rather, the unlawful use only needs to have occurred
recently enough to indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such
conduct.

 

And where is this from, btw? (It ain't from USC 19, 122) nor can I find from the referenced statute therein, 21 USC 802.

 

I'll assume it's "somewhere" in federal code, so TICS is going to take federal law about non-alcohol related controlled substances and just decide to apply them willynilly to alcohol, too, eh? How positively clever of them, I must say.

 

- OS

[DaveTN]

And by what legal authority does TICS make that ruling?
 
 
And where is this from, btw? (It ain't from USC 19, 122) nor can I find from the referenced statute therein, 21 USC 802.
 
I'll assume it's "somewhere" in federal code, so TICS is going to take federal law about non-alcohol related controlled substances and just decide to apply them willynilly to alcohol, too, eh? How positively clever of them, I must say.
 
- OS

Go here...
http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_back_check.shtml
then click on the link on the right that says "Guideline for Federal Firearm license".

[Oh Shoot]

Go here...
http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/firearm_check/firearm_back_check.shtml
then click on the link on the right that says "Guideline for Federal Firearm license".

 

Read all sections related to alcohol. Question stands. By what authority does TICS use "the same standards for determining addiction to alcohol as are used for dangerous drugs/controlled substances"? Since the federal government or the state does NOT use those standards for alcohol.

 

Why is TICS able to set standards for alcohol that aren't enacted by federal or state law?

 

Hell, the military "standard" would seem to be a lifetime ban.

 

- OS

[RWF]

"Hell, the military "standard" would seem to be a lifetime ban."

 

agreed!

[Guest Lowbuster]

Don't drink and drive. My wife and kids have to drive the same roads you do.

I agree with this

[A.J. Holst]

What happens if you are pulled over/charged with DUI and have a loaded and accessible gun in your vehicle?

[DaveTN]

What happens if you are pulled over/charged with DUI and have a loaded and accessible gun in your vehicle?

You could be charged with a class A misdemeanor; permit or not. And if you have a permit it could be suspended for three years.

[Oh Shoot]

You could be charged with a class A misdemeanor; permit or not. And if you have a permit it could be suspended for three years.

 

Yeah, could be additional Class A meanor for the possession while under the influence, but the 3 year suspension is only if you're convicted of it while you were inside a place selling alcohol by the drink.

 

Of course, you lose your HCP for term of sentence for any Class A meanor.

 

- OS