Must a person take a butt whoopin before you pull a firearm?

[DaveS]

In my personal opinion, and my opinion alone, hands and feet are deadly weapons. Anyone who tries to use either one or both on me in an aggressive manner is going to cause me to do everything within my power to let the air out of them!

 

Not hijacking the thread, but I got my "Justice for Trayvon" signs ready for my trip to Florida next month.

 

Dave S

[bigwakes]

You are comparing a LEO use of deadly force with a civilians use of deadly force, and you cannot make a direct comparison of such.  First off, a LEO responds to scenes of conflict and generally does not have the option to leave.  Also, LEOs walk around with a duty belt full of other tools at your disposal.  Perhaps if we all walked around with tasers, oc spray, and batons, I would be more inclined to agree with your argument. 
 
However, I am a civilian who is not trained in hand to hand combat and do not have less than lethal options readily at my disposal, and frankly, if I am in a situation in which less than lethals were really a viable option, it would also be likely that I would be able to leave that situation.  Certainly that is the best and first option, and I cannot imagine a situation in which I would bypass such an option to stay engaged in an altercation that would follow the progression of your chart.

We do have other options at our disposal. You can carry a baton if you take the security guard training and have a certificate with you. I got certified and carry a 21" Monadnock in my vehicle at all times. The main reason is on my drive to and from work. I'm not allowed a firearm on company property, but a baton is not addressed. All the gun buster signs around town do not apply to a baton. I do need to get some further training in its use, but I am very confident I can apply a nonlethal blow to stop an attacker. They also sell lightweight 16" batons that you could carry in a pocket or purse. It's not my weapon of choice for an attacker, but its an escalation of force without having to live with killing a misguided teen or some other attacker.

39-17-1307. Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon.

(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4″), or a club.

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.


(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(8) By a person possessing a club/baton who holds a valid state security officer/guard registration card as a private security officer/guard, issued by the commissioner, and who also has certification that such officer has had training in the use of club/baton which is valid and issued by a person certified to give training in the use of clubs/batons;

(9) By any person possessing a club/baton who holds a certificate that the person has had training in the use of a club/baton for self-defense which is valid and issued by a certified person authorized to give training in the use of clubs/batons, and is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm under any local, state or federal laws;

[leroy]

Remember the little limeric: "....Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me...".  Name callin dont hurt me; ive been guilty of it myself.  The problem will begin when any tough guy moves forward to lay hand on me or those in my care.   Summary:    ----   Name callin; OK if it makes ya feel better.   Ive probably been all them things before anyway. ----  Slappin whoopin, cutting, stomping aint ok. 

 

Any move that looks like a potential tough guy is gonna do any of them things could lead to me believin that my life (...or the lives of others...) is in danger; and appropriate defensive action could ensue very quickly.  I'm a 66 year old geezer.  I aint gonna fight nobody.   As a dear friend and mentor of mine told me many years ago: "....Im an old guy, most any young punk can whoop me, they just aint goin to...".  He carried a nickel plated j frame smith in his right front pocket every day and he knew how to use it.  I see things pretty much the same way.

 

leroy

[RobertNashville]

Where do you get that kind of insurance?

Mine is through my membership in USCCA but there is at least one standalone company that offers that specific protection although I can't remember the name of it off hand.

[RobertNashville]

...Not hijacking the thread, but I got my "Justice for Trayvon" signs ready for my trip to Florida next month.

 

Dave S

Really?  Are you going to have his picture on your signs and if so, will it be the ones showing him looking like a thug-want-a-be he was or will you use the ones that show him as a cute little twelve year old that hie mommie and Sharpton and Jackson used to explain how sweet and innocent he was?  LMAO

Edited May 23, 2013 by RobertNashville

[DaveS]

Really?  Are you going to have his picture on your signs and if so, will it be the ones showing him looking like a thug-want-a-be he was or will you use the ones that show him as a cute little twelve year old that hie mommie and Sharpton and Jackson used to explain how sweet and innocent he was?  LMAO

Nope, no picture. The one showing his middle finger is inappropriate for the news media.

 

Dave S

[DaveS]

An incident that happened to me a couple of years ago; I came home from work, took off my uniform and put on a pair of sweat pants and a hooded sweatshirt. I put my wallet in one pocket and my little pistol in the other.

 

I went to Walmart and as I was walking through the parking lot, someone grabbed me from behind and spun me around. When he did, he grabbed me by the throat with one hand and drew his other fist back. I already had my hands in my pocket on my wallet and pistol. He all of a sudden let lose of me and kind of put both hands in the air about shoulder height and took a slight step back and said "I thought you was someone else". I said "you were about a millisecond away from being dead". He never said I'm sorry or nothing. He just turned and walked away.

 

I had already made my mind up that this dude was going to die. He was fixing to get shot through my jacket pocket. I only hesitated long enough to make sure it wasn't friend or family playing with me. I wanted to throw up after that I was so shook up. I couldn't get a tag number or nothing.

 

I just wanted to share an experience with you all...

 

Dave S

Edited May 23, 2013 by DaveS

[jgradyc]

Here is a pretty good summary of the reported events surrounding the Zimmerman case.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

 

If the facts are reported are true and the witness doesn't change his story about Zimmerman on the ground yelling for help, I really don't see a jury convicting him.  Remember, the burden of proof must be "beyond a reasonable doubt."

 

Regardless, the takeaway for us, in my opinion, is 1) don't chase after a suspicious person and 2) never let your guard down after an incident. If Zimmerman hadn't done so, that kid would never had gotten the drop on him or gotten close enough to punch him.

[RobertNashville]

An incident that happened to me a couple of years; I came home from work, took off my uniform and put on a pair of sweat pants and a hooded sweatshirt. I put my wallet in one pocket and my little pistol in the other.

 

I went to Walmart and as I was walking through the parking lot, someone grabbed me from behind and spun me around. When he did, he grabbed me by the throat with one hand and drew his other fist back. I already had my hands in my pocket on my wallet and pistol. He all of a sudden let lose of me and kind of put both hands in the air about shoulder height and took a slight step back and said "I thought you was someone else". I said "you were about a millisecond away from being dead". He never said I'm sorry or nothing. He just turned and walked away.

 

I had already made my mind up that this dude was going to die. He was fixing to get shot through my jacket pocket. I only hesitated long enough to make sure it wasn't friend or family playing with me. I wanted to throw up after that I was so shook up. I couldn't get a tag number or nothing.

 

Dave S

I suspect many of us have bad dreams about something like that happening to us or even worse, to someone we care about.

 

At least it ended well.

 

I guess it can never happen to me as I refuse to go to Wallyworld; it's against my religious convictions. ;)

[chances R]

Back in my high school days, a routine after-school fight turned deadly.  Punchee, feel into a hedge, a stick punctured his eye, into the brain, and he died.  Puncher convicted and charged with involuntary man-slaughter.  Someone already alluded to the soccer referee.  Also recall the school principal/teacher that was punched breaking up a lunch room fight here in TN.  Never regained consciousness and died.  Point is:  ANY blow to the head, either directly or indirectly (hitting ground, pavement, etc) may result in severe pain, disfigurement, brain damage, permanent loss of consciousness, or death.  So as a result one can reasonably say they could fear such a result and resort to protecting themselves with deadly force.  Sure, one must consider the whole situation, but the primary point was that of an unprovoked attack.  I'm getting a little older now, I prefer my chances with the DA, given my mind-set.

 

mind-set:  the last thing I want to do is shoot someone.  Avoid, don't provoke, walk away, etc.

Edited May 23, 2013 by chances R

[TMF]

Remember the little limeric: "....Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me...". Name callin dont hurt me; ive been guilty of it myself. The problem will begin when any tough guy moves forward to lay hand on me or those in my care. Summary: ---- Name callin; OK if it makes ya feel better. Ive probably been all them things before anyway. ---- Slappin whoopin, cutting, stomping aint ok.

Any move that looks like a potential tough guy is gonna do any of them things could lead to me believin that my life (...or the lives of others...) is in danger; and appropriate defensive action could ensue very quickly. I'm a 66 year old geezer. I aint gonna fight nobody. As a dear friend and mentor of mine told me many years ago: "....Im an old guy, most any young punk can whoop me, they just aint goin to...". He carried a nickel plated j frame smith in his right front pocket every day and he knew how to use it. I see things pretty much the same way.

leroy

Well I disagree here. Sure, name calling ain't assault, but if done with the intent to elicit a violent response knowing you will use deadly force it is premeditated murder. No, it does not excuse the actions of the assaulter, but it doesn't exonerate the shooter as justified. If it did folks could just go around picking fights and then shoot a person when they threw the first punch. That isn't self defense.

For example, Mike Tyson could easily kill me with one punch. If I was attacked by him or someone his size I would use deadly force to defend myself. However, if I call Mike Tyson a n***er knowing he will likely swing at me in response and l use deadly force to stop the fight I should go to jail for murder. No doubt I would in fear for my life, but that alone will not keep you out of a jail cell if you decided to initiate the confrontation. There are PLENTY of folks behind bars right now who tried this very thing, and they deserve to be there.

[leroy]

TMF:_________

 

Ya may have misunderstood.  Someone callin me a name dont bother me (....remember the little limeric....); and i dont see it as grounds for the use of force.  I wont call anyone a name; because of exactly what you've said.  You may hear them unkind words again in court via some sorry lawyer or politically motivated county prosecuter couched as a provacative move on your part to make your poor maimed (...or deceased...) would be assailant look like he wuz innocent and on his way to the nearest prayer meeting or skittles store when you assaulted him verbally then cold-bloodedly shot him down ALA Trayvon. 

 

Again, movin toward me or those under my protection may be grounds for defensive action; should i feel my life or the lives of others are in danger.  Name callin is "playground kid stuff"; it shouldnt bother an adult.  Ive seen the name callin aimed at eliciting trouble as an excuse to 'beat down" someone.  I wont fall into that trap.  I'm too old for that.   Again:  Name callin--- OK, ill just walk away.  Punching, slapping, kicking, or layin on of hands--- bad.  Bad things could happen then.

 

Hope this clears things up a bit.

leroy

Edited May 23, 2013 by leroy

[RobertNashville]

Back in my high school days, a routine after-school fight turned deadly.  Punchee, feel into a hedge, a stick punctured his eye, into the brain, and he died.  Puncher convicted and charged with involuntary man-slaughter.  Someone already alluded to the soccer referee.  Also recall the school principal/teacher that was punched breaking up a lunch room fight here in TN.  Never regained consciousness and died.  Point is:  ANY blow to the head, either directly or indirectly (hitting ground, pavement, etc) may result in severe pain, disfigurement, brain damage, permanent loss of consciousness, or death.  So as a result one can reasonably say they could fear such a result and resort to protecting themselves with deadly force.  Sure, one must consider the whole situation, but the primary point was that of an unprovoked attack.  I'm getting a little older now, I prefer my chances with the DA, given my mind-set.

 

mind-set:  the last thing I want to do is shoot someone.  Avoid, don't provoke, walk away, etc.

 

I would suggest that in a SD shooting in which we (the shooter) is charged and has to defend himself, what will ultimately make the difference is how well we and our attorney can articulate the facts as you did above...a picture has to be painted for the jury so that they can understand why a "'reasonable mam" like you felt you were facing death or serious bodily harm.  Having records available from the training you've had can help a great deal too (and most reputable training organizations keep records of your classes and the course content; partially for that reason). You and your attorney has to be able to "undo" all the crap people believe about being shot for example (why did you shoot him 5 times with your 45ACP when they see Charles Bronson kill a guy with one shot from a .38 from 200 yards!).

 

We all known or at least should know that NOTHING is certain when you are facing a jury in court but I at the end of the day, I'd rather be alive to face them than than have absolute proof that I was facing death! ;)

[DaveS]

I would suggest that in a SD shooting in which we (the shooter) is charged and has to defend himself, what will ultimately make the difference is how well we and our attorney can articulate the facts as you did above...a picture has to be painted for the jury so that they can understand why a "'reasonable mam" like you felt you were facing death or serious bodily harm.  Having records available from the training you've had can help a great deal too (and most reputable training organizations keep records of your classes and the course content; partially for that reason). You and your attorney has to be able to "undo" all the crap people believe about being shot for example (why did you shoot him 5 times with your 45ACP when they see Charles Bronson kill a guy with one shot from a .38 from 200 yards!).

 

We all known or at least should know that NOTHING is certain when you are facing a jury in court but I at the end of the day, I'd rather be alive to face them than than have absolute proof that I was facing death! ;)

Well put.

 

Dave S

[Dane]

It baffles me that anyone would let an attacker break that 21 ft mark before making the decision to defend themselves. Seriously folks if someone is headed toward you in an aggressive manner draw your firearm and prepare for the worst. Best case they will reexamine their decision making process at the sight of a gun, worst case a criminal gets buried. Either one is a win!

Bottom line is that there is no way I'm letting a known attacker close enough to lay hands on me or my family before I start my defense process regardless of what weapon they are using.

A little different if the attacker is already close. Then chances are my gun moves to the end of my list of defensive weapons.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[bigwakes]

It baffles me that anyone would let an attacker break that 21 ft mark before making the decision to defend themselves. Seriously folks if someone is headed toward you in an aggressive manner draw your firearm and prepare for the worst. Best case they will reexamine their decision making process at the sight of a gun, worst case a criminal gets buried. Either one is a win!Bottom line is that there is no way I'm letting a known attacker close enough to lay hands on me or my family before I start my defense process regardless of what weapon they are using. A little different if the attacker is already close. Then chances are my gun moves to the end of my list of defensive weapons.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Anything you say (on the Internet) can and will be used against you in a court of law. Good luck if this post is ever used against you.

[TMF]

TMF:_________

Ya may have misunderstood. Someone callin me a name dont bother me (....remember the little limeric....); and i dont see it as grounds for the use of force. I wont call anyone a name; because of exactly what you've said. You may hear them unkind words again in court via some sorry lawyer or politically motivated county prosecuter couched as a provacative move on your part to make your poor maimed (...or deceased...) would be assailant look like he wuz innocent and on his way to the nearest prayer meeting or skittles store when you assaulted him verbally then cold-bloodedly shot him down ALA Trayvon.

Again, movin toward me or those under my protection may be grounds for defensive action; should i feel my life or the lives of others are in danger. Name callin is "playground kid stuff"; it shouldnt bother an adult. Ive seen the name callin aimed at eliciting trouble as an excuse to 'beat down" someone. I wont fall into that trap. I'm too old for that. Again: Name callin--- OK, ill just walk away. Punching, slapping, kicking, or layin on of hands--- bad. Bad things could happen then.

Hope this clears things up a bit.
leroy

Yep, I just misunderstood you. I took it to mean trash talking then pulling a gun in defense was an okay practice. I see what you're saying now.

[Jesse]

If you were to go into court battles, could you use stories of people dying from being punched to help your case?

[Jonsaiga]

If you were to go into court battles, could you use stories of people dying from being punched to help your case?

If you can prove you knew this information prior to the incident it can show the jury how and why you felt in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death. It certainly won't hurt your case. Reposting news stories on social media or in gun forums where the information is date and time stamped can prove prior knowledge as is a course certificate with course curriculum containing info.

[RobertNashville]

Anything you say (on the Internet) can and will be used against you in a court of law. Good luck if this post is ever used against you.

I understand what you are saying/cautioning. At the same time, if someone is approaching me in an aggressive manner and with, perhaps any sort of weapon in his hands I see no reason why it would not be appropriate to draw your weapon.  Ideally, he may have time to chance his mind...if he doesn't I wouldn't want to have to struggle to draw my weapon while he's close enough to start beating on me.

[East_TN_Patriot]

 You are comparing a LEO use of deadly force with a civilians use of deadly force, and you cannot make a direct comparison of such.  First off, a LEO responds to scenes of conflict and generally does not have the option to leave.  Also, LEOs walk around with a duty belt full of other tools at your disposal.  Perhaps if we all walked around with tasers, oc spray, and batons, I would be more inclined to agree with your argument. 

 

However, I am a civilian who is not trained in hand to hand combat and do not have less than lethal options readily at my disposal, and frankly, if I am in a situation in which less than lethals were really a viable option, it would also be likely that I would be able to leave that situation.  Certainly that is the best and first option, and I cannot imagine a situation in which I would bypass such an option to stay engaged in an altercation that would follow the progression of your chart.  

Yes, I can make that comparison because the law regarding use-of-force is essentially the same for both the police and private citizens, except that the law gives the police MORE latitude is using force than a private citizen, not less.  Also, a similar "totality of the circumstances" standard is used to judge the actions of private citizens.  If you notice, the first chart I posted is specifically related to civilian use of force, and it's modeled after the old use-of-force continuum used by FLETC.  Just as in law enforcement, possessing and using a firearm is a tremendous responsibility, and that includes being very clear what the law allows and does not allow.  Just because you are an untrained private citizen, the law does NOT give you extra flexibility to use deadly force "just because".  Now, it might be easier for an untrained civilian to justify using deadly force against an unarmed attacker than a trained LEO or trained civilian, which again gets to the "totality of the circumstances" argument.  

 

I am not presenting an "argument", rather I am simply stating the way the law outlines the use of force, especially deadly force.  Again, just see how things are turning out for George Zimmerman.  Like I said earlier, even if he is ultimately found not guilty of criminal homicide, I am certain he wishes he'd kept his butt in his truck that night.  One generally has a tremendous burden of proof to meet in order to justify the use of deadly force against an unarmed attacker, but if a person wants to think that they can win that court battle because that's what they want the law to give them more liberty to use deadly force, then I wish them luck. 

Edited May 23, 2013 by East_TN_Patriot

[East_TN_Patriot]

It baffles me that anyone would let an attacker break that 21 ft mark before making the decision to defend themselves. Seriously folks if someone is headed toward you in an aggressive manner draw your firearm and prepare for the worst. Best case they will reexamine their decision making process at the sight of a gun, worst case a criminal gets buried. Either one is a win!

Bottom line is that there is no way I'm letting a known attacker close enough to lay hands on me or my family before I start my defense process regardless of what weapon they are using.

A little different if the attacker is already close. Then chances are my gun moves to the end of my list of defensive weapons.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

And here is the question you need to ask yourself: what do you do if they don't stop approaching you, but never give any indication that they intend to cause you serious physical injury or death?  Do you shoot him?  If so, how do you justify that your actions were reasonable in court?  If you can't very clearly articulate EXACTLY how you believed deadly force was necessary to defend your life from imminent deadly force, you are very likely to be indicted and convicted of criminal homicide.  Just because you are not required by law to retreat, if you don't make that effort before shooting an unarmed attacker, you are likely to find yourself sitting in court.  Once you draw that weapon, you better be ready and legally justified in shooting that person, or skilled enough to reholster that weapon in a hurry to defend yourself from a non-lethal threat.  Again, you can't simply assume that any hostile person *might* kill you and use that as justification that deadly force is legally authorized.  

 

[Just2Honor]

Look....I'm 63 years old and given the chance I'm not going to allow some young buck to kick my ass. If I feel as if I'm in danger......well enough said.

I got 7 more on you and I'm not taking a beat down from anybody no matter their age.  If me or mine are in danger then as he said......well enough said

[Jesse]

If a guy was beating you and noticed you had a gun on you, would they not take it from you? How many would say i dont want his gun i just want to beat him? If you are carrying it could be just as bad not to use it as it could be used on you.

[East_TN_Patriot]

If you were to go into court battles, could you use stories of people dying from being punched to help your case?

 

Perhaps, but you'd have to be able to explain why these stories are relevant to your particular case.  Also, they are such a rare occurrence, it's likely that the judge/jury would not give it much weight.  While your defense attorney presents that, the prosecutor is going to present evidence of thousands and thousands of serious beatings where nobody died and hundreds of cases that show your use of deadly force was excessive and not justified.